I like how this character Avirodar subtley changes the wording on things like raid spots. When templars are talking about getting kicked out of raid spots left, right and center with entire raids not having a single one, yet retaining up to 4 inquisitors, we have this joker saying things like templars are no longer "guaranteed" raid spots, that templars spots are no longer "set in stone", as if there was actually a chance in hell that a templar will actually get a raid spot these days. What this joker has not one time frankly acknowledged is the indisputable WW phenomenon of templars getting dropped from raids due to lack of usefulness. All his blustering can do absolutely NOTHING to assail this unassailable fact of the game. I guess he believes all other RL's WW fail to see the awesomeness of the templar that he does, and are simply unable to see that there is absolutely nothing wrong here like he sees. No matter what this character says about "what's the difference between this expac and that expac yo?", the simple fact of the mass extermination of the templar class from the raiding scene starting with the launch of DOV should have at least provided some clue. But no, not for this guy. Nothing's wrong here, folks. Oops, except for the fact that his raid doesn't run with a templar. Oh, oh, oh, I forgot, he JUST recruited one. Like right now. LOL.....
Its gotten rather nasty on the eq2flames thread on this subject as well....mostly few thread derailing inquis creating drama...go figure...
Latpow wrote: I hope you're a long time crusader on behalf of Druid desirability in raids (especially Wardens), ever since KoS/EoF was launched. I would be impressed if you were, but I highly doubt you are, given I do not recall seeing your name in any relevant threads over the years. I have long been an advocate that furies pay the due price for the massive DPS they can do, but wardens get a bit of a tough card to play. My perspective on the Templar situation, is the bigger picture - game balance as a whole. Does a Templar deserve to gain ANY kind of boost, and a Warden (or any other healer, actually) be given nothing? Absolutely not! It would be idiotic to think Templars are a poor, deprived class that needs buffing but Wardens are fine. Wardens deserve attention from Devs years before Templars even get blinked at. The strengths of a Templar still exist, and new content can easily be designed to utilise it. The actual problem has been identified in this thread. The solution is not adding/boosting skills or abilities for the Templar class. Giving Templars any kind of boost will only serve to solve one problem, by creating another (or several others), thus being a complete waste of Dev time.
Let me ask you this: if templars got nothing except a second cure, this would change healer balance how exactly?
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Why this sudden concern for other classes of healers....I know must be trying for a Nobel prize. In all seriousness, druids can fight their own battles over class issues and I'm sure just like templars they would like their issues and concerns addressed instead of the current silence from the devs or people coming in to derail their threads. The only glimmer of truth in your above statement is that game balance is out of whack or more precisely class balance. The best evidence that the devs have overlooked a great many things when designing content is the statement from the developer at fan fair was "templars are the defensive healer and as such would be used on the harder content" yet when he asked for confirmation from one of the RL of a ww top raiding guild he replied "no we use 4 inquis"...this was something the community has know since release yet the devs seemed almost oblivious to the realities of the game and that is the actual problem. Let me reiterate for the hundreth time that NONE of the proposed changes brought up in this thread would in any way endanger the inquis current 4 raid slots. It will however give a viable option for the MT group although it will be hit or miss if RL decide to bring one templar in at this stage of the game. Your argument at this point is nothing more than a smoke and mirrors attempt at misdirection and a poor one at that.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Heh running out of material Avirodar? Last time I checked, this is the TEMPLAR forums and I play a TEMPLAR... thus I'm going to post about TEMPLAR issues. I'm well aware of the Warden plight (and defiler) and I have even referenced it earlier in this thread. You want me to try to go for the simple solution of nerfing Inq? Cause lets face it, Wardens and Templars have it bad right now cause we can't do what you guys do. Inq is the best choice to be pairing with a Shaman or solo healing. Why don't DPS groups want Wardens? Hey they have 2 group cures and some DPS buffs. Why are they not the top choice to solo heal melee DPS groups being the "defensive druid"? Its causing an imbalance. You know SoE loves to nerf... so lets stop this little game. I find it funny you resort to calling out that "you haven't heard my name in relevant" threads... like the foolishness that goes on Eq2flames has any relevance. I have been posting here and Eq2flames for many years, I just don't partake in the immature flaming and actually try to help people. If you want more references here you go... http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=415117 You see many of those suggestions? They actually went live in the SK revamp... so I know that with some well thought out ideas, things can change in this game. Not everything will be implemented, but you throw out a bunch of ideas and hopefully some will stick. Tell me Avirodar, other than taking over because no one else wanted to when Utopi retired (and quite a few players came to my guild)... what have you contributed? This is a thread about ideas to help Templars be desirable to raids and groups, along with making them more fun to play. If you have positive suggestions with your vast game knowledge, then by all means... but posting reply after reply of the same thing, when its pretty obvious to you (you are the one that makes your Templars betray, remember?) and most raid leaders with a clue that Templars are severely lacking compared to their sister class, is getting old and redundant. Start a new thread like "Templars are ok, this is my Story" or something and get out of this one.
Moving on to Templar improvement ideas... With the AA restructure of GU61 it is possible to get the Overconfidence endline. I've been trying Overconfidence out the last few raids and a few suggestions to make it more valueable as an endline: a) Next melee attack vs a non fighter will be stoneskinned b) Threat position down by 5 c) Increase the pure threat value to something like 5k d) Make it have 2 charges This way not a lot of changes will be needed coding wise to the spell and it'll be much more useful than its current incarnation. Another pretty worthless line in the Templar tree that can be looked at is "Soul Corruption". Perhaps this can do something like add 10% damage to Smite Corruption with every rank and siphon Wisdom from the mob... or scrap it all together for a more useful ability.
I am strongly of the opinion that we do NOT need any boosts to our defensive healing abilities. The inquisitors that have been trolling here are right in that regard. Not only would it make the healing differential even greater between inquisitors and templars, it is of no use in this expansion (so far). Literally no use at all, and therefore would not address the problem of templars getting kicked out of raids left and right this expansion. The two problems that have been continuously highlighted in this expansion as the reasons templars don't get raids are: 1) lack of two cures, 2) lack of DPS and DPS boosts to the group. Give us two cures. That is the simplest and least balance-disturbing fix that SOE can make. Let me ask you this: do you think that SOE will put out raid content in the future that does not involve alot of detrimentals that hit hard, hit fast and hit frequently? I personally do not believe so. This has been a trend over the last two expansions that looks like it will continue in future expacs as an integral part of the raiding (and especially HM raiding) game. We already have a semi-group cure Manacure, that while not being an actual, reliable group cure, is a spell that is designed to proc a group cure (occasionally). Buffing it up into a full-on group cure would involve minimal code changes and more importantly, minimal to no balance changes. What it would do, however, is remove a giant, massive impediment to being included in raids in this and likely future expacs. Inquisitors' second (myth) cure would remain vastly superior in terms of range and casting-on-the-run. The way it is currently, templars have to coordinate cures with the shaman. This requires BOTH healers to be spot on and perfect every single time. Even if you play your templar flawlessly, your shaman may screw things up for you. The group (and the raid) wipes. He/she has now just become responsible for YOU being less desirable in raids compared to an inquisitor. In an expac chalk-full of dets happening all the time, this probably has been reason enough for many RL's to say: scr#w this cr%p -> inquisitor. If this mess were completely taken out of the equation, you wil have removed one of two key barriers to templars being in raids this expansion at minimal to no cost at all to class balance. You will not have made the templar even more of a defensive healer than it is now. You will not have intruded into the inquisitor's domain by increasing your DPS and DPS buffs. What you will have left is a "pure" decision by the RL to pick the plate healer most suited to the content: can we sacrifice a little DPS to keep the tank safer? Can we sacrifice a safer tank to burn this fight down faster? In raids that have trouble keeping the tank alive, the templar suddenly seems like a more viable choice. For the hard core raids, take this decision into the Drunder zones free of the need to consider whether templars can keep the MT group cured properly and let the RL decide how hard the content is and which healer is better.
I agree that the first step towards fixing templars is giving us a second group cure. Then it becomes a RL choice of needing more defense vs more offensive buffs in the MT group. It may not solve the issues, but at least it removes one of the big reasons templars are being excluded from raids or being forced to betray.
Agreed...either a second group cure or drasticlly reduce our reuse to near insta recast after that if we also get some of the suggested fixes like our near worthless arcane ward or not the ball would be in the RL hands to decide more defensive or offensive healing is needed...this reroll or betray garbage is just that
I am just making another post in this thread, because I had an idea to fix the second group cure issue templars have that makes a bit of sense. Change manacure into a second group cure, but have it only be able to cure a single detriment type, based on the last ability type used by the class they cast the manacure buff on. For example if a wizard cast it on a wizard and they used an elemental ability, the cure would be an elemental group cure. Say if it was on a dirge and they used a trama based combat art, then it would be a trama cure, but if they used a noxious based debuff last, it would be a noxious cure. I think that this suggestion would make enough sense with the current AA choice, and provide enough limitations to not negate the use of the Inquisitor second group cure.
Intresting proposal but however remember that our group cure is only part of the many issues those that play this class would like addressed but unless a dev responds to tell us that they are either aware of the issues or could care less we are left to wither on the vine as it were.
Yes I know that, my post on another thread about having multi attack, and flurry counting as seperate hits, addresses another very large issue, that templars have with their stoneskin buff being much much less useful than it has in the past because it can only trigger on inital hit and not flurries or multi attacks.
Hennyo wrote: That is VERY interesting, as the people saying Templars need no help because they are such strong healers really only have 2 things they can say Templars have over inquisitors, stoneskins and repent. Most everything else is shared between the clerics, so if stoneskins are weaker this xpac than others it is just another point the devs need to address or at least comment on. As for the 2nd group cure, we don't want to overthink it, we simply need to have a group cure available when a 2nd detriment hits quickly after the first. Whether it's the reuse on a single group cure, or truly a 2nd group cure doesn't matter, we just need something we can hit quickly and go back to the business of healing.
Hennyo wrote: I think this is a terrible suggestion. If Manacure is to be upgraded, it needs to become a straight-up second cure. Anything less would be completely unsatisfactory because it would be as unreliable as before. You would need your target to be alive (wizard??? Pulease), as before. You would need your target to be casting spells to proc the group cure effect, as before. Actually your idea would make Manacure EVEN WORSE than it is now because you would now have absolutely no control over what detrimental type is being cured because it would now depend on what type of spell your target just happened to cast last. No, no, and no. Manacure needs to stop being a buff spell and become a full-on, no-gimmicks-involved group cure spell with similar range and recast as our current group cure. Anything less is a total non-fix. And I have no idea what you mean by "negating" the use of the Inquisitor second group cure. Group cures are not the sole domain of offensive-based healers. If anything, they should be the domain of defensive-based healers. Templars getting a second cure wouldn't do jack squat to "negate" the inquisitor cure, but it would provide a solid reason for RL's to not totally dismiss templars from consideration for raids.
Rick777 wrote: This is wishful thinking IMO. When was the last time some dev came here and spoke up? NEVER. I think they are hoping to make no changes at all and will try to ride out this expansion until the chorus of complaints dies out from lack of perceived usefulness. Look what they did for wardens despite YEARS of complaining.....
Meatwaggon wrote: The vast majority of my posts in this thread are pushing for the 2nd group cure. While I believe we do need other things addressed I have always believed that if we all rallied behind the 2nd group cure then at least we would take away the most blatant reason RL's don't choose us for raid groups. You're right, it's a long shot especially because it's tied to MA/flurry and in that regard to avoidance tanks and that's a very sensitive subject that SOE won't touch right now. I have also many times wondered aloud why the "offensive" cleric is the master of cures. I'm sure it's an issue of giving inquisitors something the raid group needs in order for them to be wanted, but it still doesn't make sense from a playability point of view.
Well, now we know why the devs are ignoring the templar issue... Dirge nerf incoming. Since we have so many friendly inquisitors coming to the templar boards, trying to convince us that all the templars being booted from raids is nothing to worry about, maybe we should instead be whining for an inquisitor nerf instead?
TBH I have never been a big supporter of calling for directed nerfs of any particular class but I have been calling for class balance thats thought out and not based upon illogical design. Just because the inquis's that have come in here to chime in that no fixes are needed for the templars based not on any facts but because they are trying to detract constructive discussion due to the fact they are for a lack of a better word afraid they may potentially lose 1 of 4 raid slots. They are sad if nothing else.
You know not every Inquis is saying everything is fine with Templar, I'm just saying Defensive stuff isn't going to fix you I'd be more than happy with every healer having 2 group cures or even just Templars but I think you need something more than that (and I think some of it needs to be SoE designing encounters around defensive strength).
