I found it amusing how some (not all, but some) Templars play down the possibility of raid content changing with future zone releases, as if it is guaranteed to not happen. Such ignorance is amusing. It was only a single expansion ago, Sentinels Fate, where Templars were a highly desirable, go-to class. Did every other healer get given ungodly uber, game changing abilities with DoV, and Templars get nerfed into oblivion? I want an answer, yes, or no? If you say yes, please give a moderately detailed explanation of why you feel this way, as I would love to attempt to understand your reasoning. The content that influences class desirability changed with a mere 2-3 raid zones. It can change again with another 2-3 raid zones. Templars who think their class needs buffing, because for the first time in EQ2 history they are not the backbone crutch of must-have healers in EQ2, are not considering the ramifications of what would happen if future content releases are more Templar friendly. Templars are a very powerful class. If Templars get any boosting, of any kind, every other healer in EQ2 deserves boosting in any field they desire. Otherwise, it would lead to unbalance, especially when content that is more Templar friendly starts appearing.
Templars don't need buffing, they need to be desired in at least one raid group, is that really so hard to understand. Additionally no one is arguing that the solution can come through content change, it's just that is the most far fetched way it will come. In reality you can fix ANY classes complaints through content, but will SOE sit there and adjust content for every single class? Possibly, but a much more streamlined solution would be for them to allow the class to function in the current content. Yes I realize we are 2 months away from a new xpac and at this point it will be better to wait and see what they come up with and how Templars fit into the new content. At this point we are just rehashing DOV part 1 and that's pretty much a thing of the past so it really doesn't matter other than to provide SOE a reference point where raiding Templars feel they are so they can possibly balance it in a better way next time. I certainly hope the content changes. The only ignorance is when people don't read carefully enough, it's a shame that its the end and not the means the vast majority of us are discussing. Ahh ignorance is bliss for some, especially when ALL of those questions have been answered ad nauseum. Up until this point I haven't been disrespectful, but in all honesty you don't play a raid Templar yourself so have very little basis in the entire matter. Anyone can play Nostradamus and predict what the next xpac will bring, but I would rather come up with solutions for THIS XPAC, or at least I did when this xpac was fresh, now meh like I said I'll withhold judgement until the next xpac comes out. My point about the content was there there has always been a VERY VERY small chance SOE would change the content so massively while in the middle of an expac, especially when they have demonstrated this is the way they want the content to go, especially in the way they are completely inundated in fixing their failed itemization and other game breaking issues. What they do next xpac we can all only guess, but personally I'd rather not fix issues by hoping what might come with the next xpac, waiting for what might happen the next xpac is true ignorance. As for unbalance, this also has been discussed and shown to be another red herring. What unbalance? Make the Templar wanted in the MT group again, this leaves the inquisitor with a lock for 3 groups. Even if Templars got a 2nd group cure it still would not guarantee their lock on a MT group, the name of the game is DPS and that's been true of several xpacs, this alone gives the inquisitor a huge advantage to being wanted even if we don't consider their complete trivialization of cures. So now a RL has the decision to fit in 2 clerics, one cleric with uneeded defensive healing, a 2nd group cure, and no DPS to offer personally or to the group, or choice 2 he can put in a cleric with a 2nd group cure, sufficient healing for the content AND brings personal DPS and group DPS, this is the reason a 2nd group cure for Templars is in NO way unbalancing in the least. Fixing the group cure issue would let the Templar have a chance at being a MT healer, certainly not a lock, it would allow them to solo heal groups. On the other hand changing the content would endanger the inquisitors lock on all 4 groups, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to some degree. Come to think of it, yes please SOE make the content harder so all 4 groups require Templars, I'd relish the thought of trolling on your boards but I also raid with an inquisitor so I wouldn't like that solution either. It will certainly be interesting to see where SOE goes with this in the next xpac. I think what some of us wanted was the devs to respond a bit and give us their line of thinking. As I've stated before it's too late for this xpac, but here is hoping that the devs take a peek here and see what real Templars have to say about these issues which we've ALL agreed exist in today's game.
Templars getting a 2nd group cure is not going to do anything for their raid slot viability. The current reason Templars are not wanted is healing is frankly not needed for the main tank anymore except in the rarest of situations. As a MT Inquisitor recently replacing Templars and who has a standing offer to the guildleader to betray to Templar if they ever want me to (answer is 'oh god no'), I can tell you that I don't seriously heal in the MT group in the majority of content. The most healing I do in the game is _trash mobs_ in Drunder x4. The rest is raising/curing and tossing out the occasional Divine Guidance / refreshing reactives. I frequently go into DPS stance on bosses because our shaman (a Mystic) heals so much that there is absolutely nothing for me to do. My heal parse is unchanged on these fights regardless of whether I'm in dps stance, heal stance, whatever. And the amount healed is usually 1/2 of the Shaman's healing. And for most of the fights our Mystic is in dps stance too! We aren't at the absolute hardest things yet, and I think the argument about cure rotations is a little misplaced since there's often the debuff rotations for HM mobs and when the Shaman and I oops on a priest debuff this is far worse than an oops on a group cure would be. One of two things would need to change for Templars to be viable raid healers: 1) Wards would need to be a lot less useful on the MT. 15-20% of my healing on named fights comes from Deathless Devotion and Greater Aegis, because they'll at least get cycled in more often along with the Shaman wards. 2) Enemies would need to start putting out a LOT more damage on the tank. Fights like Statue of Rallos Zek used to require both of us to be in heal stance because they would actually hurt our tank because we were using a Berserker. Now that tank is a Guardian this is no longer the case. I honestly can't think of a good way to make Templars useful without making Inquisitors useless because there flat out is no need for defensive improvements in raids for anyone right now. About the only suggestion that might be merited would be to improve their ability to buff magic users because you might want one for the mage group just like you want the Troub over the Dirge there. I have to agree I really feel sorry for Druids, there's exactly one fight a Warden is needed and for nearly everything else 4 shamans / 4 inqs is the optimal choice right now.
luinnil wrote: Templars getting a 2nd group cure would be more to help defensive viability, obviously. Templars don't want to take inquisitors' dps role. But I have to point out that you appear to have contradicted yourself. If the incoming damage made a templar a better choice for the main tank group, then a raid would ideally have 3 inquisitors, which is a long way from "useless." Or were you merely saying that healers are only useful for increasing raid damage, currently?
Enrico@Permafrost wrote: You're misunderstanding. I said that more incoming damage to the tank could make Templars useful again, but _as things are right now_ there's no point in even me healing the majority of the time as an Inq so 4 Inqs is a current better setup. I honestly don't care if every healer class gets 2 group cures, it just won't solve the current problem for Templars.
I am sorry to say, but anyone who thinks templars don't need buffing is quite frankly delusional. If you really think it would be possible with the current game mechanics to make a mob that a tank could live against with a templar and not an inquistor, you have no clue how this game works when it comes to the mechanical changes this game has seen with the potency and hp buffs etc. Here is what happens, at the point when there are enough incoming attacks on a brawler MT to make the stoneskin buff useful enough to warrant using a templar, that same tank will at some point in the fight up an die from bad avoidance rolls and spiking out randomly. Also, most every raid guild out there, uses a shaman in the MT group, and the inquistor group haste buff makes such a massive difference on how often the shaman dog group AE avoids, there is absolutely NOTHING PERIOD a templar has that makes up for that singular buff in terms of real damage prevention. That isn't even going into the dps buffs that the inquistor brings to a tank, that has a real genuine effect on MT aggro generation . Also for everyone saying a group cure rotation mistake isn't as big of a deal as a failure to properly rotate a X2 priest debuff, its a bunch of crap. A mistimed group cure can very often lead to a MT group wipe in a matter of a just a couple seconds, but that X2 debuff failure I have healed through plenty of times if it was a couple seconds late because a healer from another group had to grab it for whatever reason. Another issues with the lack of a second group cure, is that there are fights out there that it is simply impossible with only two group cures, sure the fight that comes to my mind is only this way because it is bugged atm, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, and has been for over a month, and who knows how long it will be until it is fixed. What you mostly see here in this thread are a bunch of people who think templars were just on easy street for the whole game up until this point, and that they feel it is their turn to be a broken class. Personally I am ashamed that people have such a hateful way of thought in the way things should be.
Hennyo wrote: I have yet to see a cure fail wipe the main tank group in 2 seconds. I have seen the lack of the HM debuff kill the tank instantly. AoE blocking isn't the problem either, that damage is pointless and is not going to really save/kill anyone in the main tank group. I have 57,000 hp and so does the Shaman, the MT has 61,500. I have never died to an AoE unless the HM buff is on the mob. I've yet to see any fight that requires more than 2 group cures. If I can't cure it's slower to try to tell the Shaman to group cure than it is to just wait for one of my two to be back up (or single cure). I fully agree Templars are useless in raids right now but I don't think it's due to a problem with the class itself so much as the game. Healing past the shaman is largely superfluous. If you made the Templar into an offensive powerhouse then it's just an Inquisitor which is kind of sad :/ I want to stress I don't really have a dog in this race. If Templars do get awesomesauced I will just betray my Inq to one. I just don't see it happening with defensive improvements.
Having finished up tonights raids, we managed to kill Sullon tonight and I took a look at the heal parse afterwards. MT group is Guardian Mystic Inquisitor (me) Assassin Coercer Dirge Fight was 9:24, healing numbers were Shaman - 11,700 HPS (6.6 million healed) Me - 4,600 HPS (2.6 million healed) I had both reactives up at all time, as well as Chilling whenever it came up and Divine Guidance pretty much the same way. My DPS was all of an exciting 10,300 because both of us were in heal stance and too edgy to actually try to DPS on a new mob. Everyone's health was at full pretty much the entire time, the tank spiked once or twice and occasionally the AEs did some damage but that too was fully healed within a second or two. It's just pretty clear that even on a hard fight, there's little left for the second healer to do, healing-wise. The only thing that matters is reaction-speed in a pinch when something weird happens. I've seen what happens when you have a second healer who does nothing or doesn't know how to react, the tank certainly does go down without some support, but I really think any of the 4 other healing classes could fill the heal niche in a pinch after the shaman. So I mean I don't know, I think it's clear Templars (and even more so Druids) need some kind of draw that makes them universally desired as opposed to very situationally desired, but I don't think more heals is going to do it and I don't think more damage is going to do it. You'd have to have some sort of odd buffing or debuffing.
TBH who knows what they may fix or not fix on templars this xpac or the next, etc...most of us saw massive issues and posted her hoping maybe to get an answer regardless if its the soe standard "this issue is currently on our radar and we plan to address this with a hotfix in the future (aka 6 months later if lucky)" or the other standard, "we currently have no intention to address any of the class issues brought up". The problem is when this thread getrs highjacked of sorts by the inquis like Avi who tbh who would prefer to derail serious discussion on a classes particular problems due in part to the idiotic belief that by addressing and perhaps fixing the issues templars have brought up here that would in turn automaticlly kick every inquis out of a raid slot which is about as fantasy land as one could get...I will say not every inquis is like Avi but he quite frankly isnt helping the issue but hinder it
A second group cure is not the answer to Templar problems, though it would be nice to have yes. There are ways to improve the class, even just defensively, and not step on Inq toes as far as group utility goes. Adding target lock to Sancuary's immunities, proving a buff to in combat run speed, a buff that lets us cast on the run, RANGE to group and single cures, adding some of the ability back to soak power drains to the Arcane Ward... Stuff like this would make us viable again.
Latpow wrote: I don't think any of this would make our Raid Lead want a Templar, though, that's what I'm saying :/ Target lock immunity is situationally nice, in combat run speed is very situationaly nice, casting on the run can be provided by enchanters and bards and I.. don't usually remember it's there. Range is nice but Inqs already have that so it won't make you surpass them unless they give you 10m or more of range. Power drains are only very situationally an issue with a competent enchanter. I mean none of this is gamebreaking or anything that you're suggesting, I just don't think it solves your fundamental problem in that there is no need for the healing or defensive nature that a Templar provides. This expansion is largely about killing stuff quickly and not about keeping the tank up. To clarify: What you need is a function that is useful on 100% of fights, or there's no reason to bring you over somebody that has that function. Giving all priests a useful raidwide buff like the fighters got might help (although as you can see that didn't make raids bring 6 fighters, but raids already do bring ~8 priests).
Latpow wrote: Absolutely agree that a 2nd group cure is not the answer, and for the record although I've been asking for a 2nd group cure I think I've made it clear that I believe it would just let us sneak into raids by either a) letting us solo heal groups or b) the RL not having to stress over having 2 single group cure healers. At the end of the day a smart RL will probably STILL choose the inquisitor, but at least having the 2nd group cure will give us just a tiny bit more ammo to bargain with. Also many of the points have been making directly address the misconception that giving Templars 2 group cures will make them unbalanced and immediately send the inquisitor to the trash bin. There certainly are ways for SOE to address the issues, but if they completely choose to ignore our voices then I think we may be in for a rough ride this next xpac.
I found it amusing at Fan Faire when the developer in charge of class balance told a small group he was talking to that templars were still needed for hard mode content when you are first learning the mobs and that all the top end raid guilds were still using templars. He turned to one of the RL of a top end raid guild, and asked, "Right?" and the RL laughed and said no, we use 4 inquisitors. I really don't think the developers see templars as being not useful for raids. As a raid leader, I know that I would never, in this expansion, bring a templar into a raid, except for the fact that I play a templar so I do Having said that, I used this past double XP weekend to roll an inquisitor, who is now level 90/250something with mythical and decent armor. I would never betray my templar, but it is time to start playing an inquisitor.
I totally agree, the only reason i get onto raids is because i am the RL I have concidered betraying but honestly im i think it would totally break my heart my Templar was my first charecter i don't want to be an Inquis
luinnil wrote: Devs have stated that "they're going to fix us with harder content"... Right now while working on HM Statue, while the whole raid is constantly on the move I have to stop to cast my group cure, only to have it hit like 3 of the 6 members of my group. Not to mention, then my slow character has to catch up to the group while members are getting pounded by adds / dets. For this reason I'm not even in the MT group for the fight, I get to be in the 2nd OT group (the guy that runs back and forth putting fighter debuff on the mob). Look END GAME Content and Inq still on top. My biggest frustration with this expansion overall has been group members being in range, since a lot of times members need to be away from the group to help burn adds. Its been several expansions now since Myths came out and Inquistiors are still enjoying a monopoly on long range and uninterruptable curing. Curing is a HUGE part of group stability and survivability, they are having their cake and eating it too. More and more top guilds are dropping Templars and finding their MT and OT groups more stable with Inq. Devs need to WAKE UP!
Daalilama@Nagafen wrote: I have noticed a lot of people slinging around commentaries about what "high end guilds" are doing, but very rarely is an actual guild name attached to the claim, just vague references which frankly, mean nothing. Here's mine. I am the guild leader of Tyranny. A guild on Oasis that is doing reasonably well in world wide progression. Soren down, and working on Sullons HM, first named down, next 2 should die very soon. The trend has already been noticed that newer content is hitting tanks harder. This trend is expected to be continued. I just recruited a Templar, anticipating the direction of the game, based on launch DoV content versus recent DoV content, is heading toward encounter design that will return notable favor to the skillset a Templar offers a main tank group. Feedback often issued by Inqs MTG healing Sullon's HM encounters is it would be easier if they were a Templar. I trust the opinion of skilled guildies more than the opinion of no-name no-guild randoms posting on the official forum Templar boards. So while people like Daalilama may want to claim my "beliefs" are idiotic, I challenge you to provide any support to thinking you hold so much as a candle to my knowledge of clerics, in EQ2. All SOE needs to do, is release some content in the future where the mobs favor the Templar skillset, and Templars will see their desirability come flying back faster than they realised it was gone. The problem is NOT the Templar class, it is the way SOE made the current batch of raid mobs, combined with how beastly Shamans have become. This is something that can change with great ease, on part of SOE.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Templars should be wanted and needed at all stages of progression... Easy Mode, Hard Mode, instance runs, etc. There is no reason we should have to wait around for content to be released that caters to "our skillset". Our skillset should include abilities that makes us a valueable asset no matter the circumstances. As a guild leader, I just dont understand your crusade against Templars... I mean, I would never want Inq nerfed in any way. Well balanced (if not a little OP) classes like Inq, make raids go smoother. Wouldn't it be better for overall raiding if Templars could actually contribute to raids like an Inq can? Is that not the idea of balance. Its not a few whiny Templars that are complaining... its pretty well known the sad state of Templars right now. What should they do, make the rest of HM progression encounters have huge Arcane AoEs, uncurable stuns / dazes / stifles, and 1 cureable AoE every 20 seconds? Will that fix Templars?
Latpow wrote: +1... Developers defend the role that templars have been relegated to by pointing to the need for a defensive healer during the hardest of the hard fights, and even then in just the one MT group only. In all other situations, templars are having to sit because they hurt the raid. So the guild leader of Tyranny comes on there to say they have now recruited one templar recently in anticipation of the hardest of the hard fights that they have not tried yet? Out of curiousity, what does that bring your number of templars to? One?
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Players are commenting not only on what high end guilds are doing, but also their own guilds, whether they are "high end" or not, whether they are just starting HM content, or only have done EM content. The state of the DOV raiding templar is similar across all these lines, they are not wanted for ANY of the 4 raid groups. You've just proven 2 things. 1) RL's don't want Templars for current DOV content, yourself as a raid leader being a perfect example of not having ANY templars in your raid force up until now. Of course your Nostradamus powers of telling the future kicked in and you recruited a templar, guess what I'm predicting beastlords will negate the need for any other class so I'm recruiting 24 of them in anticipation of the next xpac. 2) The utter ridiculousness of the current Templar raiding situation. What you are saying is that you don't need Templars but when you fight the ultimate hardest of HM raid fights you "might", but you don't know yet from personal experience, and on top of that you predict the future in that templars "might" be needed next xpac, of course that's not defined, will they be needed for all raids, only HM raids, only the last 3 fights in all of HM? I applaud you for recruiting the one Templar, and of course it's your raid force to do with as you please, but don't make it like you are some sort of expert just because you recruited a templar, lol. You want our raiding experience? How about YOUR raiding experience as a Templar over the last several xpacs? As a Templar I don't troll the inquisitor boards looking to nerf inquisitors, I can't stand players in this game that wish nerfs on another class, especially a class they don't play. Part of the reason I also raid with an inquisitor is I wanted to learn both sides of the coin, and by having both toons if my inquisitor did get nerfed to fix this situation I would be VERY disappointed. You can change ANY problem by changing the content, but how much work would it be for SOE to change the content, and more importantly do they really want to stray from the current model of more dps and more curing? Well in that regard neither one of us know, but I'll take the 20/20 hindsight the past several xpacs have provided me to make my prediction, of course SOE can turn around and surprise me, but I highly doubt it. In my opinion, based on both the HM encounters I've healed as an inquisitor AND a templar, and the direction SOE has been going in terms of DPS and curing being more important for raid encounters, I couldn't see them completely changing direction and making these of secondary importance. But of course this is only my opinion and I cannot predict the future. What's funny is that if I'm wrong and SOE changes the content it may very well put inquisitors at the bottom of the barrell again, it may be that "defensive healing" is needed in all 4 raid groups and RL's would only pick Templars to come to raids. Then we would be back to having insecure inquisitors QQing about how they are once again the fat kid that gets picked on. It's also interesting you say things like part of the problem is "how beastly shamans have become", are you saying Shamans need to be nerfed? No let me guess, you will squirm out of that statement by saying content needs to be changed to makes shamans wards less useful, yeah I see SOE jumping right on that one and making content changes that have been in effect for the greater part of the entire games life. Most of the suggestions on here are temporary suggestions that would not endanger a good inquisitors raid spot in the current mechanics, but they would simply allow Templars a more than nothing chance of getting into a raid. As it stands TODAY and from pretty much the start of this entire xpac Templars are not being chosen for ANY raid group. One cleric trivializes curing, TRIVIALIZES CURING just to make sure you can read that, they also happen to bring DPS to the table which has been extremely important for a long time, but even more so now with the defensive healing this xpac. You can keep posting the SAME exact thing, you know what we get it. You believe content changes will fix everything, great it's out there hopefully the devs will read it and make a decision, or they won't do anything. But it's not like you are adding anything new in the least, and certainly no reasonable or constructive suggestions. In the end if SOE changes the content without changing or adding to Templars and it solves the issue I'll be VERY happy, I really have no preference how they change it. Much of the purpose of Templars posting on here was to get the devs to respond and give us an acknowledgement of the issues and to provide us with information on their future plans. What's funny is that YOU AGREE THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM, so what's the issue? We can worry about the means to the end later on when the devs chime in if they ever do, and if they don't well it's not an issue anymore.
