Latpow wrote: As CB / Pot ramps up, the DPS and DPS potential of procs goes up at a proportionate rate. So really, in terms of overall capacity, things stay the same. If anything, DPS from procs has been lowered with DoV, due to the uncapping of MultiAttack, and the nerfing of VC. This means the DPS buffs from DPS priests, remains proportionate to what it was in prior expansions. Uncapping MA was big... Your CB and Potency has gone higher, but total HP pools have lifted as well. Group heals by well geared priests would near or full heal a group in prior expansions, so not a lot has changed. At the end of the day, Templars are one of the most robust, powerful healers in EQ2. Templars just feel left out when shamans leave them nothing worth while to heal. If reactives counted before wards, this thread would not exist. For such reasons, I stand by my comment it is not Templars that need fixing...
The vanilla raid content was very DPS-focused, and Brawlers became insanely overpowered. That's what changed with DoV to make Templars much less desirable. Balance Brawlers, give us more variety in fights (Drunder seems to have done this, maybe), and then see if raids still don't find Templars desirable. I'd bet that they will, even without any changes to the class. Unfortunately, if they buff all the tanks up to Brawler levels, then we will have a problem, since it will be the tanks' responsibility to survive most spike damage, rendering defensive healers much less significant.
Hopefully the devs have some wheels turning in their heads on this issue. Most, if not all of the top guilds are ditching their templars, they want the inq cure for the MT group and the Templar cannot solo heal a non MT group. Just as in the real world what the top guilds do is usually spot on indicative of where the trend is going, and it's not a mystery to see exactly why there are going this way. I've seen this firsthand since I raid with a Templar AND an inquisitor (yes I love clerics). We are just easing into HM stuff and my guild repeatedly asks me to take my inquisitor over my temp, and I can't really argue with them as it just seems so much easier to perform my healing/curing functions with my inquisitor. Sometimes I'm in the MT group and do just fine, most times I'm asked to solo heal a dps group, there is NO way I'd ever be able to do this on my Templar. I won't argue that my Templar is a stronger healer, but it just doesn't seem to matter in the things which are important, we both group heal the same being able to top up the group when the damage surpasses the shamans wards, we both have nice emergency spells like divine guidance, instant group rez, sacrifice, death saves, etc., we both have shield ally. I rarely if ever feel as if my group could have survived better with my Templar, but I quite often feel that the group survived better with my inquisitor.
It would be helpful for those of you who don't understand why templars are hurting this expansion to speak with the top end raid guilds that are making their templars betray to inquisitors. I spoke with a defiler from a raid guild that did such a thing. This is how it was explained to me. In previous expansions, from a healing-only perspective, the MT group often needed both a shaman and a templar to stay up. The defensive capabilities of the templar were a necessity. This is no longer the case. A shaman and an inquisitor can keep a MT up just fine. Even in difficult fights, the pure healing needed is not what makes the fights difficult. Now throw in the need to cure back-to-back-to-back group detrimentals. The shaman/templar combination HAS to coordinate the group cures perfectly, being sure to cast the group cure only when it is his turn and not overlap with the other curer, or the MT group dies. That means 2 people have to be paying attention to cures, and either one messing up causes a wipe. The shaman has to work harder, and sometimes must cancel a group ward casting because of the need to fire off a group cure instead. Contrast that with the shaman/inquisitor combination. One healer (the inquisitor of course) can manage all of the group cures, leaving the shaman free to concentrate on warding/healing. [If you, as a templar, want to understand how much easier healing is when you don't have to worry about the cures, get paired in your next raid with an inq or druid and tell them to handle all the cures for your group.] No need to coordinate group cures. That means no wipes because two people accidently group-cured the same determintal. Then throw on top of that the group DPS buffs provided by the inquisitor. It becomes obvious why templars are losing their MT roles.
The focus on cures is misplaced. I'm the raid leader of a relatively high end guild, and I betrayed back to Inquisitor for DoV after playing Templar for the last ~5 months of SF. It's simply that the extra survivability from Templars is not needed. If you wanted high survivability and only one healer covering cures, Warden + Templar would actually be superior to Shaman + Inquisitor (yes, shaman-less MT groups are fine, believe it or not). If they don't make it so that defensive healers are needed again, they will have to completely rebalance healers - not just Templars. Hopefully they realize this.
Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote: I took note of your server and guild, and I value your opinion on this. Seeing top raid guilds dropping templars means a lot. I was actually disappointed at Fan Faire that the developers in charge of class balance feel that the extra survivability provided by templars means that everything is fine and there is no issue. This is not bearing out in reality.
Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote: Thank you for your response, it's important that guys like you who have super credibility post up their thoughts. In relation to curing though I have to disagree, it is part of the problem. Of course you hit the nail on the head that the overall problem is that the defensive ability of the Templar is just not useful to a meaningful degree in this xpac. But in terms of the curing the game mechanics have changed sufficiently that ALL healers need a 2nd group cure. Traditionally Templars have been taking the MT role, but with this xpac, as has been pointed out, inquisitors have been dominating the MT role due to the decreased requirements for defensive healing, and the severely increased requirements for curing, curing extremely quickly, curing on the run, curing while being knocked up/back, etc. Now personally I do NOT necessarily want to be in a non MT group as healing the MT group is just what I love in the game. But if the RL decides he wants an inq in the MT group, then I may end up in a non MT group, but there I wouldn't be able to take care of that group by myself properly without a 2nd group cure, the group would become a liability to the raid. Add a 2nd healer and that would take away utility and dps. So we are at a weird conundrum. The templar isn't the best MT healer anymore, this has been demonstrated by top raid leaders sitting out their templars and by the obvious logic of defensive healing in DOV. But even with a 2nd group cure the Templar would still make a subpar cleric to lets say a DPS group, especially if he was expected to solo heal that group. In terms of clerics the inquisitor is able to take the role of both MT healer and non MT healer in a much better capacity than the Templar. Personally I'd be happy with just a 2nd group cure with absolutely no other changes to the Templar class, none. I do agree that content can be balanced to be a bit harder hitting to bring the Templars strengths to light, but it should be handled on the content side and not on the character side. I've stated it before, make the 2nd group cure an AA heavy investment, make Templars decide between this and something else, I have no issue with that, I'm not necessarily looking for something for free. I'm ok that curing has been trivialized by inquisitors, I'm ok if their 2nd group cure has more range, is faster casting, can be cast while being knocked back/up, has faster recast, etc etc., I'm ok with all that stuff. I just want a tool to be able to deal with current mechanics, and those mechanics are if you miss a single group cure rotation with your defiler, or if you are solo healing group, you die, your group dies, possibly your raid wipes. So if they did fix content to make the templar more viable raid healers templars would still be at the mercy of current raid dynamics with their single group cure. I understand that all healers should be able to MT heal in theory, just as all fighters should be able to MT as well. Fighters finally reached that point when brawlers were brought up to speed, but is there a tradeoff? Can a guardian viably be dps equal to a brawler, and if he can't does he get a defensive advantage? I won't put my answer here, but it is similar to templar versus inquisitor, and as I mentioned before this may be more of an issue with content than the class specifically. I know the knee jerk reaction is to say well just betray your Templar. You know what, I did better than that and leveled a separate inquisitor who is now raiding with my guild. At the end of the day I MUCH prefer the Templar for my own personal reasons, and at the end of the day it is myself who has to have "fun" and enjoy who and what I am doing. I do play the inquisitor more often because it helps the raids out, but it really bums me out to see my Templar collecting dust as he is by far my favorite toon.
It is evident that some of you are stuck on the erroneous idea that only having a single group cure is the problem. The fact is, it is not, or this problem would have been an issue 2 expansions ago. Stop beating the dead horse. Any of you who think group cures have anything to do with the cause of Templar desirability waning for the first time in EQ2's 7 year history, lack the depth of understanding to identify the actual problem, and/or are entirely too cozy with the concept of expecting your class to be non-replacable on a raid, and can not fathom the fact you may now have to put in effort to keep your spot. Welcome to the situation that veteran Inqs and Druids are very well versed in. The real problem has already been explained in this thread, regardless of if you choose to ignore it, or can not understand it. It is some relief that the Devs know Templars are not a weak class, based on the response when someone complained about Templars at Fan Faire. Inq's have different strengths and weaknesses, to the strengths and weaknesses of a Templar. The Templar was NOT nerfed, and is still a powerful class. Inqs are slightly better suited for the structure of some current content, but this can very well change in a handful of months when more content arrives.
My suggestion of a 2nd group cure is BECAUSE of the content, not because of any shortcoming with the Templar, I've made this incredibly clear over and over and over... If content changed to make the Templar relevant again I would be happy with this, but it would be snowballs chance in hell that content will be changed. The detriments hit faster than in TSO/SF, they need to be cured quicker, they are applied much faster than the single group cure refreshes, and this xpac many of them are in tandem with knockbacks and knock ups. This makes one cleric MUCH more viable in healing, whether it's healing the MT group or healing a non MT group. Inquisitors already have the lock on healing DPS groups, they have had this for a couple of xpacs if not longer,now they have the lock on MT groups as well, so what is left for the Templar? The templar cannot even solo heal a group, in TSO/SF it was tougher and usually very hard to solo heal a group, but in DOV raiding it's quite feasible to solo heal a group with ONE condition, you have 2 group cures. I think there is a DEEP misconception that players are saying templars are weak or have been nerfed, I don't think anyone really said that, certainly I never said that. I think a basic understanding of game mechanics and experience actually raiding a templar go a long way in having credibility, which is why I appreciate a well known raid leader coming in and putting in his perspective. The issue is that I highly doubt the content will revert in any way, shape or form. SOE has been VERY clear in its progression of how important detriments and curing are, I don't see why after years they would change direction. Even taking away the issue of defensive healing not being needed in DOV raiding we still have the issue of the Templar having no real home in a raid. If the content doesn't change, and it's quite doubtful that it will, what other solutions do we have? I see a lot of talk but no real talk of solutions other than what is the most doubtful of what will happen, that is the content being changed. The fact of the matter is that Templars are being sat out of ANY raid group and that is an issue which needs fixing, whether it's thru content or the character itself doesn't matter so much as it needs to be addressed and squabbling about which way to go about it is counter productive to the class.
Rick777 wrote: +1 I don't think the devs are going to see this problem with templars until even more raids kick out all their last remaining templar or force them to betray to keep their spots in raid.
Rick777 wrote: It is good to see we are in agreement that Templars are not a weak class. As I have stated already, Templars are a heal+defensive cleric, and they are powerful healers for doing what they are designed to do. If you think detriments hit "faster" in DoV than they did in TSO + SF, you're off the mark. A lot of DoV encounters provide us with consistant spacing between AEs. Did you even raid in TSO or SF? Mobs like Tythus and Tyrannus had people guzzling potions like crazy. Mynzak would combo AEs too. Anashti Sul was cures all over the place on one of the highest scales ever seen in EQ2. Can even back up to Gozak and Munzok in MMB, both could spit out batches of triple AEs. Or shall we talk about Saalax, Theerax and Yael in Underfoot Depths? Please do! Or how the 3 sages in PoRT where one or two of them had the 3 AEs... What about Arkatanthis and Waansu in Labs? A Templar trying to solo heal these encounters during a relevant phase of progression would be a worthy challenge for members of top end guilds, let alone Templars in mid range guilds. If any of the AEs ticked, it got dangerous quick. But Templar desirability was still very high! You probably remember TSO and SF by what it was like at the end when you were farming content, and not at the start. But did your guild use a solo Templar on Yael? Theerax? Saalax? Or what about backing up further to Construct Hardmode? Hardmode Vaclaz? Did your Templars parade around proud as punch about how easy it was to be a beastly Templar and solo heal all of those? I am just curious as to how much merit your assumtions about AE damage and curing requirements are, because during all that time Templars enjoyed high desirability. If you think hard hitting content with lots of curing required did not exist before DoV, you have no idea what you are talking about. As you said, Templars are not a weak class. So, they do not need anything. The "problem" has nothing to do with Templars, neither does the fix. Any boosts given to Templars are undeserving, as it would be uneccessary boosting of an already powerful class. When it comes to healers, druids need Dev attention long before a Templar gets blinked at.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Templars are not weak healers. They heal just fine. They are a weak class. This expansion has no need for templars in any raid group. No matter how you look at it, you cannot dispute that templars are being left out of raids. At least giving templars a second group cure would allow them to be kept as a possible class for the MT group when a defensive healer would help. Otherwise, raids are going for the inq with the second cure, even if it means a slight drop in the defensive ability compared to a templar.
Avirodar@Oasis wrote: Actually, per what I said in my post, I never solo healed a group in TSO/SF other than EM, my point was in DOV it is much easier to solo heal group, I regularly solo heal my group as an inquisitor. I'm also glad it took us 5 pages to agree, lol. I did raid TSO/SF and while I can't say I have specifically timed the group detriments on every single fight, I can say by personal experience that the group detriments land much faster. In any event even if they did not as you say the point still remains that the content does not need the defensive abilities of a Templar as they did in TSO/SF so RL's are preferring to take the cure equation out of the raid encounter and choosing inquisitors. Why is this concept so difficult to understand, inquisitors trivialize the cures, I'm ok with this, but this is the fact of the matter, and if the shaman is enough to keep the group standing, and you don't need the defensive buffs/abilities of a Templar, and the inquisitor can trivialize curing for the group, it's just complete common sense for that RL to choose the inquisitor over the templar for any of the 4 raid groups. Simple, the frequency of detriments doesn't matter even if we do disagree, it's a non issue. There are 4 groups in a raid, and Templars are wanted in NONE of them, this is something which needs to be addressed, it's very simple. I'm trying to come up with a viable solution on how RL's will want Templars again for ANY of those groups. I don't really care if inquisitors become MT healers and Templars become DPS healers, just to use an extreme example, I just want to have a place in a raid again, same as every other class in this game. I fully agree that the problem has nothing to do with templars, it's the content, but as I've stated before 1) I highly doubt the content will be changed and 2) My suggestions (do I really have to say this again?) are for the Templar to fit into the current content as SOE envisions it. RL's will want Inquisitors if they need to solo heal a group, they will want inquisitors for DPS groups, they will want inquisitors for the MT group, I'll ask you again what's left for Templars? I understand inquisitors had it rough for a long time, but I think overswinging the pendulum the other way is NOT the answer. Don't forget I have both templar and inquisitor raid toons so can at least directly compare them both on specific encounters and I regularly do in my self evaluation of what will be best for my raid force. I won't even get into the druids, but they are pretty powerful right now IMO, but you know what, I don't play a druid anymore, I had a raid warden in TSO but haven't played her since then so I won't pass any judgement on what they do and don't need, although our raid force has a warden who regularly either heals the MT with a shaman only, or solo heals a non MT group in raids, both things that my Templar is unwanted or cannot do. Which brings me to a question, how long have you been raiding with your Templar? You have a templar correct? One that you raid with. I don't mean a guildmate who relays his experiences, I don't mean you observing, I mean you specifically have a templar who has raided in SF/TSO and currently raids in DOV? Just curious. In any case I've put forth my beliefs and specific experience and that's all I can do. It serves us no purpose to rehash our same arguments, they are there for the devs to peruse, or more likely ignore as is their usual behaviour in the class forums. We will agree to disagree based on our experiences and observations. My only point is that Templars are not being wanted for raid groups due to the mechanics and content of DOV and the situation needs to be looked at, I'd rather offer up some suggestions instead of none.
Good to know that while templars struggle to keep raid spots and get replaced with inquisitors, we debate here whether or not templars need some kind of help... While the inquisitors on their boards debate the difficult topics of "combat arts versus spells for DPS" or "I wish we had one more blue AoE damage spell" or "do I use 1H or 2H weapons for most DPS?" Yes templars are fine the way they are, right?
First whats comical is some of the very same inquisitors chiming in here to politely argue against any sort of needed tweak to the templar class are the same ones on various other fan sites who in essence have stated that for years inquis have complained through many xpacs for problems to their class and were undesirable and in plain english stated the shoe is on the other foot now....funny but if percieved problems with the inquis class several xpacs ago were an issue to be addressed and not okay why is it okay now? I still raid in MT group but this is out of legacy and skill but I can see the writing on the wall with the current raid content... Shield of Faith needs a fix to be relevant otherwise it is hardly cast aside from trying to proc buffs/wards/cures/etc. 2nd group cure would be nice or drasticlly drop our reuse timer on our one group cure, possibly enhance our range Manacure, needs addressing as its currently hit or miss Reverance/Divine Arbitration need to be drasticlly revamped due to their complete lack of use in current content and have been useless for some time These and other issues addressed by other templars here could really use some attention Can a dev be bothered to respond to this thread to know if you are even aware or care about our concerns or are we spining our wheels for nothing
Daalilama@Nagafen wrote: Did you actually read this thread, or chime in with a bit of a blind rant because you feel your spot on raid is no longer set in stone? Most high end Templars openly agree that the Templar class is a very powerful healer, perhaps the most robust healer (for healing HP) in EQ2. The problem Templars are experiencing regarding raid desirability, has nothing to do with being a weak class, and all to do with the content not requiring the healing prowess of a Templar when a tush-kicking shaman leaves next to nothing to heal. Do you, in any way, try to claim the following is not true: Templars are Defensive + Healing focused clerics, and can do so much better than Inqs. Inquisitors are Offensive + Curing focused clerics, and can do so much better than Templars. You can not argue the above. Each cleric excels in the area they are designed to be good at. The solution to the problem is not to give an already superpowered class (Templars) even more stuff, that would be unjustified and only cause more imbalance in the game. If SOE designs content that provides more desirability to having the healing capacity of a Templar, rather than the curing capacity of an Inquisitor for main tank groups, the "problem" as you see it will automatically fix itself. If the healing+defensive capacity of a Templar are not desirable, of course Templars will get benched. Unlike the imbalances between Templars and Inqs in years gone, this problem is a content problem, not a class balance problem. I can understand that some people will have trouble differentiating between the two, because it is an in-depth issue. I do not want to see the Inq's sister class have to experience what Inqs suffered for years. But I do not want Templars to be running around as ungodly juggernauts as they did for years.
Daalilama@Nagafen wrote: If we look at the backwards thinking of changing the content, something that has an incredibly small chance of happening based on complete common sense and a 20/20 hindsight viewing of how SOE has evolved content in terms of curing and in terms of raid difficulty, you can clearly see that the "changing the content" argument while true is just a pipe dream and in essence a distraction from getting Templars back to raiding instead of sitting out or betraying. Looking at your suggestions I'm definitely in agreement that these things need to be changed, but the approach will be much different than if we change the spells/effects, or if we condone the flagrant red herring of "changing content". 2nd group cure: This is the one that gets the most attention, it's obvious that inquisitors will feel as if they will be ostracized again if Templars got a 2nd group cure. I've already stated numerous solutions which would keep the inquisitors as a more cure friendly choice, although personally I don't know why inquisitors became the "curing cleric" especially in light of them being an offensive class and not a defensive class. Nonetheless you can lower the resuse on the templars single group cure, you can give templars a 2nd group cure that is AA heavy so they have to sacrifice something else, the 2nd group cure can continue to be unable to be cast while the templar is moving, you can make the casting of it fairly long, all solutions which would allow a Templar a basic function such as solo healing a group or not having instant fail condition if they miss a group cure rotation. In contrast changing the content would require massive rewriting of most encounters both group and raid zones, if they decrease the need for curing in the content this would mean they would have to rewrite the encounters to be difficult in another manner. Shield of Faith: There are only 1 or 2 HM encounters where this is remotely useful, otherwise the absolute only reason to cast it is for group procs. It's amazing how this went from an extremely powerful defensive spell in SF to absolute junk in DOV. This one however might in fact be easier to address with content, simply put in more damage that matches the SOF ward, I'd be happy with this as otherwise there is nothing wrong with the spell. Manacure: It's a bit too random for my taste, but I do see it proc once in a while, especially when on a fast caster like a chanter, although more likely it's on an elemental caster. I don't think I care either way on mana cure as I cast it because it's on my hotbar, but I don't really see it being a raid breaker, certainly nowhere remotely in league with having a 2nd group cure, or my first group cure ready for recast. Possibly make it a group proc on heal/melee/spell. Reverence: Useless for a hell of a long time. Cast only for a proc, but otherwise it's just one of those spells they really need to give it something cool to do. At the end of the day for us Templars the question is how can we be wanted in raids again? Personally I don't see why people get in a huff if their class cannot fill every role. Do inquisitors really really feel badly that they have not traditionally been MT healers? Dunno, but as a Templar I've never felt bad that I wasn't chosen to be in the dps group, and again as an inquisitor I've also never felt bad about not being in the MT group. Inquisitors are wanted for all 4 raid groups at the moment because 1) their group cures trivialize curing and 2) the content is not hard enough for there to be any need for the defensive heals of the Templar. These are 2 FACTS and cannot be disputed, the question of course for us Templars is how can we be relevent to a raid again. I understand the inquisitors who pop on here who haven't really raided with a Templar who don't want to see their inquisitor relegated to how they used to be, but honestly if the Templar became the MT healer of choice again that still means they are only invited to 1 out of 4 raid groups and the inquisitors would VERY likely still have a stranglehold on the other 3 out of 4 raid groups. In any event if indeed the content changed to make healing harder and cures hit less often what would happen if due to the increased difficulty and cure lowering of the "new" proposed content RL's wanted a Templar in all 4 raid groups? Would that be ok with you inquisitors? It's a dog chasing its own tail and it would be amusing if it wasn't so darn sad that changing the content would in some ways just bring us full circle to when inquisitors were not as in demand. That, of course, is ignoring both the massive undertaking changing content would be, and ignoring SOE's quite obvious direction in how they want their content tackled.
At this point the very least any dev could do is chime into this thread and let us know these concerns are on their radar but sadly after 6+ years on this game I highly doubt they can be bothered which means this thread in particular and this forum in general is about as helpful as a screendoor on a submarine.
