Spell Research Instant Upgrade crosses the line of Pay to Win.

How is it different? Allow me to assist with your question!

#1) Buying a master off the broker, requires someone to actually PLAY the game, in order to obtain a resource (master spell scroll), which they can then put up for trade/sale if they desire. The volume of masters to purchase with plat is subject to supply vs demand, requires active player participation, and is not an infinite resource.

#2) Clicking the magic SC "I win, Master!" button, requires no actual in-game effort. There is no factor of supply vs demand. To make an example, on the opening day of an expansion, every single player can purchase their new masters from the cash shop, while there is actually very few (if any) of the masters in circulation from actual genuine game play. This situation best illustrates where people who pay real world cash for masters, have an actual advantage over people who do not.

So, #1 promotes participation in game play, player trade, and the in-game economy. Where as #2 promotes people waving around their credit card to avoid playing the game, player trade, and the in-game economy. If you would like any further clarification, please do not hesitate to ask.

Much like how each of us in the original LoN and Station Marketplace threads called it, this is simply another move toward indisputable pay-to-win. The problem is that there are people who will argue subjectivity infinitely. They could slap every single ethereal drop on there, all avatar gear, and each piece of gear from every HM boss including the full range of PoWar and these same people would argue that it isn't pay-to-win. They'd blather on about how there's SLR and how there are players already clearing that content so clearly the player who ISN'T clearing that content isn't paying to win by simply pulling out the credit card to nab that weapon from General Teku.

Today's MMO player sickens me. Pathetic.

Thank you so much for your clarifications. I never would have guessed.

Maybe the ability to research masters should be turned off for the first few months after a new expansion comes out. That way there would be no credit card waving, and the only ones who would have an advantage would be those lucky enough with the RNG to have their particular class masters drop for them. That would certainly keep everyone on a fairly level playing field for at least a few months, right? Now after that time, it would seem acceptable to bring it back again, as people raise alts and/or guilds recruit new raid members.. they will want to be mastered as soon as possible so that they are up to par with the other members who got so lucky with the RNG when the new expansion launched.

Really.. I could care less if someone can research all of their masters with SC or not. It has no bearing on my game-play. I do not take part in SC research and if the person next to me in the group or raid I'm in does then yay for them. They have spells a little more powerful than mine. Big whoop! So that person with the master they can't use that dropped for them in an instance won't sell on the broker for 500p, and they can only get 125 for it. That also doesn't affect me at all. There is too much worrying about what the other guy is doing, and how he is doing it.

Wow, so much to be said in this thread and so many others like it.

I'm a person that owns a fairly successful business and I put in a lot of hours to keep it successful. Though I love it, I don't have all the time I used to have to play this game. I don't have time to run heroic zones all day until I'm mastered and don't have time to do the plat runs that some do to buy their gear. I'm too busy being a father and making the real $$. Most of the time in the past these games have said that if you cannot put in your time, you cannot really play this game well. You'll never be mastered and never have the gear necessary to be wanted in a group or raid. So, I'm different than most of you as I love that I can now upgrade my spells with real dollars!

I have more money than I have time. Most of you have more time than you have money. SOE does not make anymore money off of those of you with extra time. After all, you're already given them most of your medium of exchange. SOE is still trying to take my medium of exchange. I don't have time to give them (which they don't profit off of anyway) but I do have $$. I want them to have it so that I don't have to give them time...and they want my $$. Why is this so hard to understand? Why does this hurt you? Do you only WIN if you are better geared than I am?

I'm going to go further and say that I'd like to see decent gear on the marketplace. You hear that SOE? I'd like to give you more of my RL $$ so I don't have to keep running heroic zones (I don't have the time to raid anymore) hoping for a rare decent piece of gear. Take my money, I want you to so that you don't have to take as much of my time. Let those with time as their medium of exchange give that, and let me with $$ as my medium of exchange give that. Now we're talking fair. When did you guys determine time was the only thing they wanted from you?

You are aware that you can research your character's arts and spells without spending Station Cash, correct?

It just takes time. Online time, offline time, doesn't matter in the least. (Offline leveling! Oh noes! Heh.)

This 'instant upgrade' works on the same principle as experience potions; it reduces the time it takes to reach the next 'ding'.

If you are okay with them selling experience potions (aka, 'click here to level faster buttons') for SC, then by extension you should be okay with them selling 'click here to research faster buttons'. If you are not okay with 'go faster buttons', then you should object to all implementations of them otherwise you are being hypocritical.

The question now is do you even know how to play your char? Mastered spells and raid gear bought by RL $$ do not automatically make you a good player. I pity a group or a raid who is going to get you based on gear check.

EDIT: I was one time in a group with a tank fully geard in raid gear. In he he barely was doing over 30k dps with illy's tw and conjuror's toxicity plus other buffs loosing agro at every oportunity. Now you would ask why? I would ask this question too.

The day they give in to Mr. Ledgers is the day this game dies. Most raiding guilds will completely disband over what he's suggesting.

I'm going to pitch an idea at you Mr. Ledgers. You don't have the time to play, so you shouldn't be rewarded with the best gear. You didn't put in the effort. I love how this type of thing is acceptable view in a game. Sports are a game too. Would you find it acceptable if the team you were rooting for was paying for wins in the form of the entire team using enhancement drugs? I'm betting not. You prefer it's a level playing field where the skill gained is skill earned so the best skilled players don't have to compete against someone who simply opens their wallet to put out better results. It's the same here. I and many others like me put in the effort to show we're better at playing the game than most of the other players. You allow those players to just buy what I'm putting effort into obtaining and I'll drop my accounts that day. I guarantee most raiders will follow.

Also I hate the hidden insinuation that anyone with time is some form of wastrel. I hold a doctorate degree and can go ahead and throw myself into the 1% of individuals playing EQ2 that do, if that high. I'm retired now and I have time to sit back and play video games when I so desire. So I'm at the peak of intellectual achievement, almost certainly made more money than you while in my profession, but somehow I'm a "loser" by playing this game for a few hours a day. Fascinating view.

So... You just made a theoretical example, and one that I will use to help explain the point to you.

You run a zone, and you get a spell master from it, yay! If the cash shop was never brought in, you may have got 500 plat for it, but because of the cash shop, you now only expect to get 125 plat for it (a 75% decline in value). This would not be a big deal if the introduction of the cash shop caused a 75% decline in value in everything, but it does not.

So unless you are someone who NEVER sells a master, you are actually affected negatively.

Glad to be of service

I play my class very well, been playing this same toon since 2005. I simply do not have the time to invest in this game like I used to. And now you're all personal with my gear assuming that if YOU have better then you must also play better. I'm not trying to be personal, just pointing out that your time, though valuable, is not more valuable to SOE than my $$.

If a raid is using gear check to determine the quality of a player, that raid is going to get exactly what it deserves. Gear checks have never been a viable way of determining player skill. And, to be honest, Mr Ledgers can buy the raid gear now. Buy krono. Sell krono for plat. Take advantage of the service offered by those who SLR. Mr Ledger's characters have raid loot. (Woo! ... or something.)

It happens at the beggining of applying process very often. But i hope they would kick him out or sit him at every oportunity.

I'd like to note that the raid guilds haven't disbanded.

In fact, the raid guilds are the ones selling the raid gear to other players for coin. (You may have heard of this 'service', 'selling loot rights' or 'SLR'?) Coin is easily acquirable by those with cash, via the purchase and sale of krono.

Yet the raid guilds are still here. Hmm.

Actually, no I am not affected because I do not care if I get 500p for that master or if I can only get 125. My game-play does not revolve around how much I can obtain for items from the broker. I'm sorry if that is how your game-play rolls and you are so negatively impacted. I am still of the opinion that if they were to turn off the spell research ability in the SC shop for a few months after the release of a new expansion, that it would help to keep those on both sides of the fence happy.

So you say. You can decide to make an alt then but is it going to play well? Another question why do you even need maters spells and raid gear if you don't group or raid anymore? Just for show off? Legendary gear from solo is enough to run the same solo.zones over and over.

Btw i pay for my gold account so I am not a freeloader as you so not nicely try to put it. I am very much amuzed that even in a game some folks can try and bring twisted mentality that money for whatever reason make you a better person. Funny really.

You must really, really disagree with me to the point of getting all up in my face on this. If you disagree with my "Born" date, look me up. It seems you've done that already by criticizing my gear, so just scroll down a little further. Yes, I was playing this game when it used to be truly challenging.

Why do I want things that are better in this game? Are you that thick? Why does anyone want to improve? Even if I just run heroic zones it is done even easier and quicker with better gear and spells. I'm sorry if the money brought to the game threatens the time you put in. Even though you're threatened I still do not lessen my gratitude that some parts of this game doesn't require me to put quite as much time.

But again does it make a peep who bought gear a better char? Plus raid guild at the very least put effort and their time to obtain that piece of gear. This guy wants an endless supply of it without any effort whatsoever!

It may come as a shock to you, but guilds actually sold loot rights before Krono and SC cards existed. I am not pulling your chain, guilds actually sold loot for plat many years ago. It may also come as another huge shock, but not everyone who buys loot being auctioned, is doing so with plat obtained by selling Krono...

Also, you may want to consider the impact of limitless supply vs limited supply. On the market place, 10,000 people can buy the same item in the same hour. However, in the actual game, 10,000 people can NOT buy a 4SW Drinal BP off SLR auctions in one hour. People like "Ledgers" want the best loot in the game on the market place, and in unlimited supply. There is no doubt about it, people like him will keep pushing for it, step by step.

It is a slippery slope we're sliding down, and I am proud to stand up and say "Enough!". The primary point of playing EQ2, is to invest effort to achieve reward. People who think that waving around the credit card to make their digital avatar look prettier, might find a program like IMVU or Second Life better suits their needs.

I will tell one more thing and it's going to be it. Your money doesn't bother my time at all. You are the one who cannot understand that majority who likes this game do not want it to become pay-to-win equivalent of asian games on a market. I will just make sure if i accidently end up on your server never qroup with your inq.

Once more, I'm being misrepresented <sigh>. Because I would dare raise a hand against those of you good people who put in waaay more time than I do and am not as well-geared, I should sit and be quiet. I have never said that the end game items should go to the credit card holders. I still do not want that. Others may, but give them the label and not me. I said I want more items available for $$ than what we have now. If SOE wants those $$ from me make them available. If they only want my time then keep on this course and see how much that helps their bottomline at the end. Keep the top gear to the time spenders. Make other gear available to the $$ spenders.

Whether you care about it, or not, does not matter. Your own example detailed how you would be short-changed hundreds of plat because SC purchases of Masters devalues tradeable masters.

If you do not care about plat, I am sure everyone who ever buys anything off you in EQ2, can expect a 75%+ discount from the advertised price, right? It is hardly being consistent if you only care about the price of masters.