Spell Research Instant Upgrade crosses the line of Pay to Win.

Oh, just shocked me.... till i notice, this has been around for month Not as comftable as it is now, where you get a straight price to complete the research, but via potions you could get the upgrade as good as it is today and that´s around for months.
So i wonder, why no ones jumps on that one... or at least i did not notice.

You can buy self rezes, self full heals, group evac, exp debt remover, tracking pots, a mini CoV, a portable travel bell, full mana pot, speed pot, and now master spells and plat from SOE with real money. This is exactly what everybody said would happen. They just don't care anymore. They get more and more shameless every year and the game gets less and less popular. They have such a bad name for a reason. How do you take the name Everquest which was the most popular MMO of its time, and turn it into a small niche game not even in the top 20 most popular? SOE works magic.

What is this advantage you speak of? I don't recall seeing anything anyone else has or the speed wiith which they got it making a difference. My neighbor bought a new car, doesn't change my 20 year old paid for car. My sister won a new car, doesn't change my car or my neighbor's car. We all have cars and can drive to the same places.

There si no advantage, those little things you can buy, doesnt turn over the world or change any big... beside of, i would not spent any dime to those fluff things on marketplace ^^

And my granddad had to walk to school, in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways, during a howling blizzard. I had the luxury of riding a heated school bus. Did he moan and whine and cry because he had it "so tough" while I had it "so easy" and it "wasn't fair"? No. He just told his story of how rough he had it and how easy I had it and then we went out for ice cream. How does it negatively affect your game-play when someone purchases upgrades to their spells? You can also upgrade your spells in the game, without spending a dime of RL money. So many people are always so focused on the what the other guy is doing and stamping their feet and screaming "it's not fair", instead of their own game-play.

This kind of mentallity is why this game is so unpopular. People like you that defend actions that give SOE such a bad name are the reason the game we used to love so much has become what it is today. This game fades away more and more every year, but keep defending these decisions that are driving people away. Just remember, the name Everquest fell from number 1 to not even mentioned anymore. There are reasons for this, stop defending them.

You can buy plat too. Just buy Kronos and sell them.

I have seen almost all of the game since 2005. My advice: The glass is half full !! You can earn and play the game in a rather "classic" way. Concentrate on that. Else the game may appear butchered and is no fun anymore. Thinking positive is the onyl way to have fun in EQ2.

You know, this is still a game that I love. I still pay my sub every month. I still play regularly. I still enjoy myself and feel that the entertainment I am paying for is worth the price. I could say a lot about "people like you", but personal attacks are frowned on.

I really don't understand why there is so much focus on what the "other guy" is doing in the game. Here's a great idea. Play YOUR game, let the "other guy" play his. If you want to go out and earn all your masters, by all means, do it. If you can afford the RL cash to buy all your masters, then by all means, do it. Who gives a rat's bottom? Masters can be acquired in any number of ways. Choose the way you want to do it, go out and do it, and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

(This could be said for RL as well, but that's a whole new soapbox)

It's not pay to win until paying is the ONLY way you can win.

Fully agree. Focus on entertainment and fun...not what the other guy can do and you can't. The subject (spell upgrades) are something that can be gotten for SC or spending time in the game. Look at it this way. Somebody works 60-80 hours a week - has $$ to buy stuff from SOE but not a lot of time to play. Somebody else works 30 hours a week - doesn't have $$ to buy things from SOE but has the time to spend in the game earning the same things. So everyone has tradeoffs - try not to focus so much on "keeping up with the Jones" and instead just enjoying whatever ride you can manage.

I'm tired of seeing threads like this.

1) This is not an FPS, there is no such thing as "winning"
2) Pay to Win is defined as: With-holding the best items from players unless they are willing to pay real cash, and there being no other way to obtain said items

That said, this is not pay to win, you just have to be patient. End of discussion.

There is only one way to click a button and get an "I win!" master.
If masters dropped from chests in a form where you could get an appropriate level/tier master for any class by 'consuming' the item then it would be a little closer to comparing apples to apples. The suggestion that it is ok because you can do it any number of ways you might as well compare a bushel of apples to a big pile of steaming horse dung.

Direclty selling masters with a one click button not only crossed the line of pay to win it also encroaches on crafters ability to sell experts which are more than enough for heroic and below content. That in addition to alienating or outright chasing away players who do not want this stuff on the marketplace how sure are you it is a good thing.

The playerbase continues to decline, they continue to put more and more focus and emphasis on the marketplace, it continues to decline even more. It is "IN YOUR FACE". I can't log in w/o having this stuff popping it up, no way to block it. How sure are you that SC is having a positive impact (as a whole)? I pay a monthly sub, I do not want to see the welcome window which is nothing except a portal to the SC shop in the form of a big, gawd intrusive pop-up ad. If I have a desire to get anything from the SC shop then I'll press Ctrl+L make my way to what I need, other than that it is intrusive to the point of being highly offensive.

Oh my! It is amazing how many players will stand up and defend pay 2 win items nowadays. I remember when these research potions were first placed on the marketplace there was a thread on the old forum site about how that is pushing it too far. Truth is SOE has been heading in this direction gradually overtime with the scrolls and potions you could pay with SC. Most players have become accustomed to it and no longer care one way or another, except of course the ones that benefit from it and strongly fight for their right to keep pay 2 win items. This particular item I will say is not as big of a threat because the difficulty in game of achieving master spells is quite low, but that's where it starts is these small subtle pay 2 win items and once they get players hooked they might toss out adornments, special status enhancing potions, and yes they might even release gear on marketplace.

People who do not understand the reason why someone should care what the other player is doing should think about it for a second. This is a mmorpg and what you do and how you play your game DOES effect other players especially if you group or raid with them or compete against them. If you were to buy some DLC pay to win items on a single player PS3 game then fine that's your business, but in a game were you regularly compete and cooperate with other players the players who pays to win has the advantage over the other players. Every player should have an equal fair chance to be just as good as the next player. The only real quality one might have over another should be skill and NOT money investment. You should not be judged or rated by how much money you can afford to fork over to SOE. Pay to play is a much different concept than pay to win.

Now i should make myself clear once again so i don't get attacked by being misunderstood. Research potions on the marketplace by themselves are not the big bad threat, because of how easy it is to obtain all master spells in-game, but items like these never should have been introduced in this game and I fear we may see more in the future. The day raid gear is released on marketplace is a day I would gladly quit this game.

Even if they put in raidgear (on pve base), does it effect any?
Well on my point of view, it will not touch the way i play..... or well, maybe i don´t see it. Pvp maybe another world to this, where i can understand that point and maybe there would be some sort of pay 2 win....
But pve wise, there is no pay2win cause there is nothing to win out there at all.... if you have to pay for
It´s like dating a girl, it is not the same if you have to pay for

How much SC is it to upgrade a spell to master? I'm thinking it's probably more expensive to do it via SC than flat out buy the master with plat on broker.

Also, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of SC is purchased for in-game earned plat anyway. So really, the person that actually plays the game has the advantage over someone that pays $ for station cash. Since the person that pays $ for SC needs to go work IRL to get $, while the person that plays the game can just spend their in-game plat on the SC.

Furthermore, buying spell upgrades does not allow a "buyer" to be BETTER than a "player", only to be equal, since the "player" has in-game access to (1) spell upgrade potions, (2) SC to buy those same upgrades and (3) master spells themselves on broker.

Would I rather see the entire concept of Station Store, Station Cash and Krono scrapped altogether and have a pristine 100% in-game economy? Absolutely I would. I'd take that in a second. It's the way MMOs were meant to work. But that's not really a battle that can be won, so as long as the store is not providing gameplay power and advantages, i'm ok to live with it. Plus, thanks for Station Cash, I don't have to pay for my sub for 18 months. Saving me like $200 in real like cash! I suppose i can spend that $200 on spell upgrades.. but it's cheaper to get them with in-game plat.

How is it any different than buying a master from the broker, or having one given to you by a friend? You click a button, you get a master. And "I win!"? How is that even remotely "I win!"? You can research the masters in game without doing anything at all except clicking a button. Just because it takes time, does that make it acceptable instead of "I win!"?

The marketplace (while not my favorite part of the game) is here to stay. It isn't going away, and to spend so much time raging and being bitter over it is only going to serve to make you a bitter and unhappy player. The welcome window, while annoying, can be closed with just a quick click of the mouse and you never have to have anything to do with the SC part of the game. Nothing in the SC shop is "required" to play and enjoy this game. Nothing in the SC shop is an instant "I win!" button. Drama class is ----> that way.

It's pretty evident that most of these people prefer the game to be a small, niche game on the brink of extinction. Easier for them to solo, because soloing in an MMO is so much better than playing a one player game. Most of them would probably be happy if they were the only person on their server. They don't care about healthy populations like the rest of us that like to use an MMO as what is made to be, a multi player experience. I have always said, if you play an MMO for a single player experience, you are doing it wrong. There are much better one player games out there. Stop ruining this one.

And how the tides have turned.

I made the call years ago, when all the SOE apologists were claiming that LON was not the start of a slippery slope... These people are probably still attempting to remove their foot from their mouth. Since LON, SOE has deployed the inch-worm strategy upon the EQ2 population, and is still in the process of pushing the line. People are lapping it up, along with the complimentary glass of kool aid.

Apathy reigns supreme, as people slowly but surely become broken-in to SOE's end goal of paying real cash to bypass effort. By the time EQ3 launches, the herd will be well trained. Anyone who thinks the inch-worm strategy will stop at research time reduction, will end up like those who thought LON was not merely the beginning.

With no formal, universally accepted definition of what Pay to Win actually means, it is a term that could be argued black and blue with no resolution. Some consider it paying for something that can NOT be obtained via standard means (even if obscenely tedious to obtain). Some consider it paying real cash to reduce/remove the effort/time required to achieve a goal. The way I see it, neither is wrong, it is just a personal perception of where the line is drawn.

depends on how far you are into the research time period, have seen a max of 800 SC for a level 95 master and it drops as the remaining time goes down, can be as little as 10 sc

It is different in the fact that any item on the broker, or bought from or given from another player is obtained through traditional play.
When they short circuit that it cuts down on traditional play, it impacts crafters negatively in the process. I also think the spell research process (another short circuit) should be removed. When they made the advanced solo zones in CoE a series of loot piñatas it had an impact of grouping, better gear could be obtained with less effort in solo zones, that short circuit had a negative impact on game play, they made some very minor changes to rectify that and a handfull of people got all bent out of shape over it resigning to never run the zones again because they now had a semblance of challenge. Most of the items I don't have such an issue with but the ability to instantly buy a master via SC is 100% the equvalent of buying in game gear for cash.
I am fully aware of how to close the welcome window that is not my point, as a paying subscriber I should have the option to not show that window onstartup, it should be an option for gold accounts. This is not drama it is a perfeclty valid and reasonable opinion. I am also fully aware that SC is here to stay. I am also aware that they couldn't care less that there are paying subscribers that do not want to see that window, it is just one of the signs of contempt that they display towards the playerbase.