Space and Annihilation

Discussion in 'History and Lore' started by ARCHIVED-ratbast, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. ARCHIVED-ratbast Guest

    Recently I came upon the term ultera, and mana _____. cant remember second half of name. it basically says ultera is the plane of mana, and its directly connected to every other point (and time) in all of norrath and all the planes, making it ideal for traveling. can anyone remember the second name for ultera?

    I was reading a book by Everling recently, and he traveled to deathtoll tower, in what he believed to be ethernere, in an attempt to retrieve his daughters. there was a black hole kinda thing there, and he saw a nightblood. he named the idol of mor'tael the rune of ethernere originally, then renamed it the rune of oblivion. i think he went there and realized ethernere was just 'the void' after all.

    the fact he saw the deathtoll tower in the void, right next to the portal to annihilation, raises some interesting questions about what 'till yonder' really means. makes me wonder if the gods are throwing everyone into oblivion, while telling them there is an afterlife, instead they cease to exist (except for the gods favorites they bring home to their planes). its like the gods are running concentration camps, and secretly annihilating the souls of the dead, all the while being worshipped.

    so as i see it, there are the 8 elemental planes, the 16 planes of influence, some demiplanes, then there is prime material plane, where norrath and other planets reside, plus ultera (which overlaps with everything), plus the void. no ethernere, what
  2. ARCHIVED-The_Cheeseman Guest

    Nah, Everling was just wrong. He thought he went to Ethernere, when in actuality he was in the Void. The tower he mistook for the Deathtoll Bell Tower was actually an obelisk. Ethernere definitely exists, you can talk to some ghost NPCs in the game who have actually been there and can hear the bells chime.
  3. ARCHIVED-Rainy Guest

    yeah the Tower everling saw was presumably the Obelisk of Lost Souls. not the Dethknell tower.
    Ethernere is kind alike a purgatory for souls...or a place of solace. some accounts about it talk about people imprisoned or lost in Dethnell tower...other accounts talk about it as a realively peaceful existance. seems like Ethernere is where you go if none of the gods want you in thier plane, or if you perhaps chose not to follow any deity.
    if your agnositc, Ethernere is your 'heaven/hell'.
    if you follow a god, but didn't make the cut or need to account for your sins, Ethernere si your purgatory until you are cleansed.
    the description of ethernere outside the Tower seems to just be a featureless plain. someplace you can louge about and relax and enjoy that rest you earned. its when your in the Tower that the stories of people wadering lost and tormented or trapped in rooms of the Tower occur.
  4. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    Rainmare@Oasis wrote:
    I'm going to disagree about this being where unwanted souls go. From various incidents where players summon dead beings they always arrive from the Ethernere. From various accounts dead souls are summoned to the Ethernere by hearing the bells from Dethkneel Tower. They also indicate that they pass on to their final reward when they hear the bells toll for them.
    I'd say that all souls go to the Ethernere for at least a short time before they go on to their final reward. Some souls (agnostic) may never leave the Ethernere. Others will hear the bells toll for them more quickly.
    Actually the whole attempt to contact Erollisi from last year's Erollisi Day event gives us a bit more insight. Erollisi's follower who was going to become the Avatar of Devotion didn't go into Erollisi's control when he died, he went into Drinal's custody. She had to bargin to get him back from Ethernere (which is perty ironic when you consider we resurrect at the drop of a hat). So all souls no matter how dedicated or worthy seem to go into Drinal's care.
  5. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    ratbastard wrote:
    Well, plenty of people refer to Ulteria as "Sundered Frontier" or "Stonebrunt Highlands". Odus was pulled into Ulteria to be used by Theer as a bridge from The Void to Norrath. Think of it as the single largest void anchor ever created.
    Also the most dangerous void anchor. Odus is ballanced between the pull of The Void and its link to The Underfoot. If either force were to cease its pull Odus would be destroyed by the other force. Worse still, the Euradites believe that Odus is still linked to Norrath in such a way that if Odus is destroyed all of Norrath will succumb to the same fate.
  6. ARCHIVED-The_Cheeseman Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    To clarify, Ultera was always around, it was only since the Feedback event during the activation of the Ulteran Nexus that the entire continent of Odus got pulled into Ultera. The major problem with that is the fact that Odus was the site of a portal to the Plane of Underfoot, located at the very bottom of The Hole. Theer created a void anchor on Odus, and now it is being slowly pulled into the Void. Unfortunately, if all of Odus is pulled into the Void from Ultera, its connection to the Underfoot will cause that plane to get pulled into the void as well, which would then lead to all the other planes sharing the same fate. The only real hope is that the pull between the Void and the Underfoot balance one another out, though this will likely not have a very positive effect on Odus in the long run.
  7. ARCHIVED-Zabjade Guest

    Actually it's a 3 way balance not a 2 way one. The relative "down" is the Underfoot, toward Odus is the Void, and if you look toward the relative "Up" you will see a hole in which the blue sky of what I assume Norrath is. (probably how they replenish their water supplies, although does that mean that Norrath is loosing water?)
  8. ARCHIVED-LordPazuzu Guest

    Earth, Air, Fire, Water... where are you getting the other 4 elemental planes from?
  9. ARCHIVED-Iskandar Guest

    I forget who first posted it here, but this is a quick chart of the planar structure in EverQuest by Bill Trost:
    [IMG]
  10. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    That chart actually doesn't make sense with the Elemental dieties. Povar-Terru Marr-E'ci represent water. Povar is the god of water in a vapor state, so mist, fog and steam are his element. That's 2 of the planes on that chart. It isn't like Povar is a recent god or anything. Also ice isn't included in the chart, which under modern EQ terms should probably replace Mud on that chart.
    Probably Steam should be replaced with Light. There is no room for darkness, but that would be Druinl who isn't considered an elemental diety. Then again, Fennin Ro who represents light isn't an elemental diety either.
    All in all though, it gives an interesting glimpse into the though process behind developing the cosmology of EQ. Its very D&D.
  11. ARCHIVED-ratbast Guest

    that chart is great and all, but it doesnt have the void, and it doesnt have ultera.

    from lore, ultera, the plane of mana, is another dimension that is connected to every point in space and every point in time. from it you can travel anywhere, anytime, any plane. the sundered frontier isnt 'ultera', ultera is a plane, sundered frontier is a location/arrangement of land. if anything ultera could temporarily contain sundered frontier, but not the other way around.

    this chart also doesnt have ethernere, nor nizira.

    this chart is what i had in mind when starting this thread. considering what it left out. its incomplete. i think of ultera as overlapping the entire chart, but a different dimension, and maybe the void seeping in between cracks or on outer edges?

    not really sure about that one tho since the expanse of the outer planes in supposedly endless, and it has oblivion in it(annihilating destination), suggesting its farther away than in just the cracks.

    if a spacial representation, a chart, is good enough to convey relationship between planes, where do ultera, void, ethernere, and nizira fit? what other significant planes (not cookie cutter demiplanes) are missing?
  12. ARCHIVED-ratbast Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    water is triumvate. you are dissecting the plane of water and trying to reassign it accross the plane hierarchy. earth also has a multiplicity of deity, the rathe.

    i agree with logical inconsistencies of having plane of steam (between air and fire) and also having povar part of water, but povar is not an elemental god all his/her own like xegony or fennin ro, just a manifestation of the greater trinity. when one rathe dies, another rises in its place. they arent unique or discrete boundary entities. in your favor, povar does have a name, unlike the rathe who died.

    its clunky, but it can still work to include storyline of 4 other major planes with corresponding deities. they could also minimize those planes and say they are nothing more than doorways, windows, or buffer zones between powers-that-be with very little space or meaning.
  13. ARCHIVED-Rainy Guest

    Fennin Ro is an elemental deity. he's the Tyrant of Fire, master of the Plane of Fire.
    Sol Ro represtents Flame and the Sun...if that who you were thinking ruled Fire.
  14. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    ratbastard wrote:
    Respectfully, you seem to miss the entire point of the Rathe. The Rathe is embodied as 12 different beings that in totality compramise the diety known as the Rathe. Destroying 1 segment of the Rathe doesn't hinder the god, as when one section is destroyed it is instantly regenerated.
    The origional story of the Rathe's execution was that the entire councle, all 12 of the Rathe, were executed on Norrath and that created the 12 mountains in the Rathe Mountain Range. Apparently there has been a retcon since then to state that only one of the councle was destroyed, and was permanently destroyed. This is quite ironic considering that lesser dieties can come back from apparently being executed on Norrath but the Rathe can not. That was the reason given for NOT killing Mithanial Marr but instead capturing and torturing him on Norrath by Innoruukk, Terris and Cazic.
    The Rathe are one being, not a collection of gods. The Trimverent of Water are 3 distinctly different beings. While Terrew is acknowledge to be the leader of the 3, the others are seperate beings with their own personalities and can disagree with Terrew. A portion of the Plane of Water is held as mist/steam and is ruled over by Povar. Povar is NOT a part of Terrew Marr.
  15. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    ratbastard wrote:
    The chat is a design document that gave a rough outline of dieties back when EQ1 was being developed. Lots of dieties we have now don't fit on that chart. There is no mention of hero realms on it either. Your looking at something that can give you some insight into the creation of what we have now. Your not looking at the answer to any of your questions.
    As for your distinction of Sundered Frontier not being ulteria...your right. Ulteria is larger but then again it isn't. Ulteria has no mass, no space, nothing. Theroretically it can't hold matter. And yet...Odus has been suspended in Ulteria for about 200 years now. Obviously not all the information we hear about Ulteria can be correct.
    Nizira is a city, not a plane. I believe it is completely contained in Norrath, thogh they did make contact with extra-planar creatures that spelt doom for the residents of the city. Even if it was a seperate plane it should be in that circle in the very middle called "prime material plane" which holds all the normal worlds in it. Like I said before, very D&D.
    As for the Void, it can't exist along side of the other planes or it would consume them. Apparently Ulteria acts as a buffer zone to prevent the Void from consuming everything. i.e. the Void is out side of space, time and matter.
  16. ARCHIVED-DrkVsr Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    Actually, The Realm of Heros is mentioned on that map: surrounding The Material Plane
  17. ARCHIVED-Iskandar Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    I think of Ultera sort of like the container for our multilayered milkshake universe, while the Void is like a transdimensional straw that is constantly trying to slurp out the good stuff
    But I may just be thinking that because it's lunch time!
  18. ARCHIVED-ratbast Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    are you sure about this? the forsaken city is on norrath, but to enter nizira you click on a pulsing mist portal, which has a portal guardian you must kill to enter. afaik nizira is basically a replica of the forsaken city just a diff dimension. i do appreciate your theory nizira could be on prime material plane. that would mean prime material plane was a multiverse cosmos, instead of just a simple homogenous universe veeshan flies thru.

    the reason i didnt ask about hero plane is because i considered it already laid out in the chart. hero plane as multiverse cosmos is interesting idea tho.
  19. ARCHIVED-ratbast Guest

    Iskandar wrote:
    @meirril. maybe this is where fantasy breaks down and this is overanalyzing but the void cant be without space time and matter. ppl have visited the void, and places exist in the void. that means it has space, time, locations, persons.

    only way around this is to differentiate where anashti was banished as pseudovoid plane, and void is annihilation at center of pseudeplane.

    to me, the creation story of the nameless and the lore on shadowmen have conflicting definitions for 'void'. for the nameless, void is absence of space time matter or any creation like the singularity before big bang. for shadowmen, its a desolate dimension with annihilation sucking everything in.

    relating to astronomy, the nameless' void would be an actual blackhole. the shadowmen void is outer space near a blackhole.

    pesonally i like calling sucking annihilation at center 'void' and desolate dimension containing that nonexistence blackhole something similar but different. i think nameless trumps shadowmen for giving word definitions.
  20. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    ratbastard wrote:
    Evidence from the various Rememberences books points towards there being several different worlds. In some of those books it seems like the natives didn't use magic but were technology based. Also in a few other stories there are people from worlds similar to Norrath that definately are not from Norrath. There is also knowledge of the Realm of Discord which is definately another plane. Considering the similarity between EQ2's comsology and past versions of D&D and knowing that Norrath's origins lay in a D&D campagin it is easy to conclude that there are multiple material planes, with Prime being Norrath.
    Discord points to there being other dimensions not mentioned in the chart, unless I missed that too. As Norrath continued to be developed devs not connected with the origional team have continued to add content to the game. Some of that content is like Ulteria: it isn't mentioned in the earliest versions of lore that we have. Is it an addition? Was it there in the early lore notes? Does it conflict with earlier material? I don't know. I have my suspicions but it isn't like the devs are going to spell out the story for us.