Sorcerer DPS balance

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Kioske, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. semisus Does not play this game

    What is this utility you guys speak of that i bring to the raid as a conjuror? my call of hero?
    Yes Sorcerers and scouts needs a helping hand , but stop saying that i bring utility that i really dont
    Besides the people who will be left behind the most with that orange adornment aint Sorcs it will be scouts since they are currently balanced with that 100 fervor rune.
    VGScastaway likes this.
  2. Earar Well-Known Member

    well what do conjus bring ? (I only checked base spells, didn't have time to check all AAs)

    I did check :)

    call of hero
    u decrease defense of mobs
    u have a group heal (yes even though u may not use it, u have one, remember was usefull)
    u have pets that also have different abilities depending on the encounter. Even though now it's only one pet. and spells that boost pets
    u have also a great buff, group mit increase and defense increase

    what do warlocks bring ??

    4% hate transfert
    skill increase
    noxious mitigation decrease

    conjuror were T2 dps because they had more utility, versatility, tank, scout, mage pets ... even a heal pet with AAs I think, better soloers

    as many classes, your utility decreased with levels, with changes. I know it too my illu's utility decreased by a lot too, but u still have more utility than a warlock. and DBG should bring that back a bit. Sorcerers have always been the glasscanons. they spec on dps, it's their goal. yours as conju is bring a bit of defense and also as I said your versatility (though u lost it, healing pet was never really usefull, and even your pets lost their utility). I'm looking at your AA tree, and in prestige left u have :

    Elemental barrier : reduces inc damage --> 10% less magic damage and immunity to roots and snares ... don't u dare tell me it's no utility. Even your conjure elements gives u chances to reduce the use of stoneskins and other stuff.

    on the other hand the warlock prestige is pure damage.

    see .. you have more utility than u admit :)
  3. Anunnaki Active Member

    You may want to read the rest of this thread if you wish to see a proper explanation on what a Conjuror does and doesn't bring as far as utility. I'd almost be inclined to agree, if only slightly, if any of the spells you listed had scaled into useful territory in the last 5(+?) expacs.

    I'm not going to turn this into a Conjy thread, I am all for class balance, but stop saying Conjys are T2. They have been T1 longer than they were T2, so lets just put that argument to rest.
    Anaranj and Ashandra like this.
  4. semisus Does not play this game

    Ok ill admit we have more so im gonna list em all so we are perfectly clear.

    Call of hero! ok but call of tinkerer does the same
    Flameshield! lets give the tank a damage shield that cant crit - all it does is annoy me
    stoneskin - the self one is ok - the grp one well its ok in incoming but not much else
    decrease defense of mob? are you talking about Vampire bats? seriusly?
    Grp heal? sacrifise? wow a 100k grp heal? well you didnt mention but it does give the grp mana which is actully useful since potency explosion and it gives power to the grp but lets be honest power aint a issue on many fights and it has 1.5 min recast
    Epic pet yea it does give some stuff to the grp - and Teamwork aa is nice with it - But it also made all the agro on us and rendered alot of AA useless
    Runes of geomancy , not a bad thing but other classes have same thing but better which overwrites ours
    The mit buff gives a amazing 1k mit and defense to pets ! awesome right? ( costs a concrentration slot as well )
    Elemental Aspect ? wow 800 more power and 1400 elemental ressists? This is such a nice spell! and oh it uses a concentration slot.
    Yes Elemental barrier is kinda nice , before epic spells this was really the only good utility we had
    Pet debuff? 2k decrease in ELE and Arcane - its ok but nothing fancy and in current game it doesnt really matter that much
    Also you forgot our essence so we can give the raid a thing to click so they can get 300 power!
    However we also got another epic spell called confligation that when maxed gives 10 fervor and some damage we can give to ppl but it costs a concentration slot , this one is kinda nice
    Even before Epic pet , all other than scout pets where rendered useless our tank pet has not been able to tank anything since the days of dessert of flames , the mage pet had its days

    Conjurors had alot of time ( expansions ) where we was not wanted in grps or raids , now we are wanted and i like it but that doesnt mean we should be nerfed , instead other classes should be brought up and been given tools that makes em all wanted and desireable and i really hope the dev really think through all these issues with their xp 14
    Anaranj likes this.
  5. Earar Well-Known Member

    And as i said at the end of my post your utility disappeared with content.
    But the base class has more utility than a warlock.

    It's just when conjis only see CoH as utility makes me tick.

    What about illus ? And how our utility went down ?
    CC ? Useless
    Haste buff, useless
    TC mostly useless on raid geared peeps
    Channel focus, useless fir same reasons as TC. And recast too ling if u only want the cadr while moving.
    Mana regen ? Many classes can power resplennish
    Time warp ? Only useful now coz of the fervor buff
    Dynamism ? Bot game breaking and AA bugged

    Our reser abilities is nice though

    Except for flash of brillance, pom ... our utility dropped by a lot too. Still i see myself as utility class more than dps class.

    To me, conjus should get their utility back and go back to tier 2 dps. Doesn't mean their should suck, just that their overall dps should be a bit lower than glasscanons. And conjus mitigation group buff is better than most mages group buffs, because mit didn't increase as much as other stats, so 500 mitigation is still nice for tanks (not gamebreaking but usefull). While 2400 elemental resist is just a rain drop.
  6. semisus Does not play this game

    I would much rather have each dps class have the same damage potential and making all the utility useful again with added stuff that made each class desireable
    Redlight and sarasi like this.
  7. Veta Well-Known Member

    Well said.

    You clearly don't play a warlock or a conjuror. Which heal are you talking about? Transference? The one with a 22second cooldown on single target? Or sacrifice the group heal, for around 100k hp per tick (when I am sitting at 12mil hp standing, congratz on my 1% hp heal) that does miniscule healing because it does not crit. Both are definitely lack luster compared to the healing/power regen that dark siphoning can do, which can affect the group. Warlock also provides the group with beneficial duration increase up to 18%, not just pure damage.

    A conjuror doesn't spec for left side because the utility provided is actually bad. The aa doesn't reduce the use of stoneskins and other stuff. It only gives the group 1k physical mitigation, do you not realize how bad that actually is considering if you wanted to tank you would need to have 20k mit to even take a blow? You also only get the mitigation when the Earth effect procs. If you read how the AA actually works, with a 2.0 trigger chance, you have a 33% chance to trigger each effect. The specific set of abilities actually have to be used when the specific proc happens or you don't receive returns and you only get 1 trigger for each proc of conjured elements.

    You include elemental barrier but did not include bulwark of mana. The healer pet isn't used because it is worse than a merc, if you combined all 3 healing abilities of a conjuror, it still wouldn't do better than dark siphoning. The healer pet heals for 1% hp, without the ability to crit. You failed to mention volatility and propogation. Volatity reduces the AE radius of mobs as well as propogation giving everyone in the group an increase to trigger their spells, which includes their own damage proc they provide to the group.

    You said you checked base spells, except some of what you mentioned for conjs were AAs and you listed none of the AAs that warlocks get. /slowclap
    Beee likes this.
  8. sarasi New Member

    For a experiment i took my necro through the wearing my best adv solo gear and a whopping 14k pot i grouped with our raid geared lock. I topped the parse on every named and im a clueless noob where necros are with a bit better gear and having a spell rotation the gap is huge. Now im working on a bst to see what that is all about ;).
    So anyone defending their op class is deluded! must say its a hollow victory over our lock.. its sad that someone can just get their epic, put no work in and beat someone who's worked on their toon.
    A equally geared and skilled player should have the same dps potential ..end of
    VGScastaway likes this.
  9. Beee Well-Known Member

    The whole discussion about nerfing other classes makes me sad. Think about your own - well known class - and what can be done better or what ability is overpowered. If something overpowered does not work as intended contact the devs and they will look on it.

    A huge amout of the actual DPS does not come from the regular class abilities, it comes from Ascensions and Epic 2.0 Ancient ablilities

    The second big part is fervor. It's possible to play with more than 100 fervor solo as mage (Heartbound, 4xTallon Waist are easy to get)

    The third bid part comes from potency via Tithe points

    A smaller,but important part is the usage of Rising Tide.. 100% boost if you know how to work with it

    And last Ancients Spell Abilities and AA-opimisation

    So if you have a Beastlord, a Summoner or a even a Wizzy who cares about all this, This player will outparse all other players who do not care about this ;)

    And the gap between the players within a single class is huge.. much bigger than between the different classes :)
    Fairin likes this.
  10. Fairin Active Member

    i see all this junk about utility buffs and whatnot, the only utility buffs that really matter are damage procs and fervor(troub/conj win here). (bards have exeptions...) nothing in this entire expac mana drains more than drinkin a mana potion every 90s, heals are pritty moot if you cannot cast them repeatedly when needed.

    Did you even see the adorn you're gonna get?. all mages are gonna get the ravaging adorn that was making scouts do decent dps for once, so now the gap between conj > beastlord is gonna widen, and sorcerers are gonna catch up.

    as for the sorcerer wards. - my warlock has 5m hp wards along side the dragon one... no idea where yer gettin this 500k from..

    what scouts currently have - 100 fervor 7 seconds 30s reuse (for beastlords thats every primal doing double dmg basically)
    what mages currently have - lol
    what everyones gonna get. 150 fervor 12 seconds. 30s reuse.. suddenly all mages can pop their big hitters for max fervor dmg when they COULD NOT before?... wait and see what sorcerer dps is gonna be like because before this adorn.. you just weren't a scout without the ravaging adorn...
  11. Yards Well-Known Member

    Umm what? Terris certainly has an extremely high mana drain. I'm guessing you have played less than 25% of the encounters this expansion. Why do you make wild assumptions.
    Revanu likes this.
  12. Kielex Well-Known Member

    He is from AB, life is already tough enough for him, leave him alone!
    Snikkety likes this.
  13. Kielex Well-Known Member

    Which is why only the best of the best should be compared.
  14. Fairin Active Member

    ??? the hell? 25% of content? something about making wild assumptions....

    you mean when someone casts during her fail condition like the first boss of xalgoz? i don't remember her draining mana excessively.
  15. Anaranj Member

    Great conclusion!
  16. Veta Well-Known Member

    For the most part, any smart person would use ascensions are priority when the first fervor proc is up, probably taking a majority of the duration up. As a summoner, my big hitters won't be up for every fervor proc. Communion has a 1min reuse, with a 2 second cast time, and an 8 second duration. This means communion will be up for every other proc, but if the proc happens before communion is cast then 1/6th the duration is rather wasted on casting this ability. Elemental Blast has a 1.5min reuse, meaning it would only work on every third fervor proc. For necromancers, horde has a 5minute reuse. So I will get the use out of every 10 fervor procs, but the ability has a 12sec duration meaning it more than likely will never receive full benefit. The reset rune doesn't reset any pet abilities, except soulburn, so the fervor rune is more advantageous for other classes than summoners. The pets abilities can't be timed with the fervor rune. The mini-swarms will line-up with a 30sec reuse. As far as all mages being able to hit their big hitters for the fervor proc, summoners won't be able to do that every 30secs like a scout or sorc potentially can.
  17. Yards Well-Known Member

    No it is part of her script, it's cute how you are pretending like you know what you are talking about.
    Revanu likes this.
  18. Fairin Active Member

    thats what i remember from our pull on her. but do tell us otherwise.

    (03:11) Terris-Thule
    Fairin | Power Drain |73973589
    Terris Thule the Enraged | Power Drain |22633413
    Conj | Power Drain |10507296
    Coercer | Power Drain |10495964
    Coercer | Power Drain |10104831
    Defiler | Power Drain |5410708
    Defiler | Power Drain |4957806
    Coercer | Power Drain |815080

    22m over a 3min test fight.

    i said pritty clearly " i don't remember her mana draining and you go off and troll...

    post her script for us then.
  19. Fairin Active Member

    you'll learn to play like a beastlord with your new shini fervor proc- apart from on pull rising tide, you'll find yourself saving your ascended abilities for the procs along with one or two (well more now its not 7seconds like im used too) big hits from your class.
    DoomDrake likes this.
  20. Veta Well-Known Member

    I stated I would be using the ascensions with the proc in the post. The difference between my class and beastlords is that I won't have a full chain, or the ability to make use of one, for the fervor cycle like a beastlord does/will. That being said, a beastlord doesn't to hold much as the cooldowns will align. Beastlord primals are on a 30second cooldown, which is the same as the fervor proc.