SOE, what is the role of berserker? Cuz, its sure not tank

Arinwulf wrote:

Title of this thread just sucked me in so I can't resist. I'm not a zerk. Guildmate who IS a zerk tank just rocks.
ALL of the following are tanks: Guardians, Berserker, Paladin, Shadowknight, Monk, Bruiser. The problem that SOE struggles with is how to make them all balanced together at their main job while going about it in different manners. The reality just isn't always the same as the intent. They are not dps classes although a number of them can do excellent dps as well. In fact, that's a complaint that sometimes comes up from the dps classes (scouts and casters) in that several tank classes, with zerk being very high on the list, can do such high dps and still have the tools and survivability of a tank.
All of the following are healers: Templars, Inquisitors, Wardens, Furies, Mystics, Defilers. Once again, the problem that SOE struggles with is how to make them all balanced at their main job as healers along with their secondary abilities. A fury is not a dps class. They are a healer that generally can do good dps.
Really, I can't imagine you are going to find much sympathy on this topic especially given the new expansion and it's AE nature. You chose to play a tank class. A berserker was a tank at launch and continues to be today. That is not something that has changed over time. Most players know how good zerkers are at tanking. Therefore, most groups will expect someone playing your class to fill that primary role. You keep asking what role a guardian has if a zerk is also a tank and it's the same thing. The difference should be more a matter of style/flavor instead of a"there can be only one" mentality. Again, there are 6 tank classes in this game not 1.
So, it seems to me that you have two options. A) be willing to accept that others who don't know you will expect you to be a tank and just know that if it's not what you want to do you will have to do your best to play in a style you enjoy or B) create a class that was and is intended to be primarily dps from the scout or mage ranks. Either way, play what you like but I just don't envision much to be gained by railing against SOE for your choice to play your character outside of its typical role.

Like someone said, file this one along with the furies who don't like to heal.
Everything the OP said is BS, except for the fact that he/she doesn't like to tank.

Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:

Lol, the color war from the beta board continues

Wasn't involved in that one, although it did go on for a while

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

1. Since you have statistics on this apparently, how many of these were originally Berserkers who betrayed in EoF or RoK?
2. If this is true, the joke might be on those betraying. Fighter changes aren't done. WTS patience, 25P.

No idea how many of them where Guardiand pre EoF/RoK, my main was my Warlock in KoS and part of EoF so I pretty much only paid attention to that community, I switched to my Guardian because our MT left game.

1, has betrayed already, another has started collecting masters and Zerker VP set gear and has spoken to his raid lead about changing, who has yet to decide. These are 2 I know personally, I'm sure alot of the Ex Berzerkers are changing back though if they can take the master and gear hit.

Patience I have in abundance, dealing with stupidity isn't a strong suit of mine. Putting the fighter classes live as is without the full changes being made or even any announcment as to what they may entail and a detailed explanation of the target state of the fighters is nothing but stupid and is bound to cause issues and anxiety amongst the Fighter community.

I'm an avatar guardian, i have almost every piece of avatar gear, i been through beta, i saw all the changes, i am not betraying atm. i did betray from zerker kos->eof.
why am i not betraying? i'm still the mt, i have every master, and quite frankly i have no time to dedicate to a 6hr betrayal and worse yet, broker dive for all the berserker masters i'll need. gear wouldn't be an issue, i could get anything i'd want and even get items in preperation for a betrayl if i wanted, i just do not see the point.
what do i mean by this? if it's raiding i personally don't have any aggro issues, grouping? big deal i goto my mirror and respec to agi and take out my axe of war.
would i have betrayed with 200aa? now thats a different story, maybe, i personally see berserker having all the tools a guardian has and having the aoe advantage, and now a very good situational mythical, my guardian mythical is junk, especially with 2 chimes.
Again i say this, no berserker see's the advantage you WILL have with 200aa over a guardian b/c no one has 200aa yet, but once the general population, especially the berseker/guardian population reaches 200aa berserkers are going to go, "wow i'm a guard but i have aoe tools, and guards will go wow, i'm a berserker w/o aoe tools..."

there's still no good reason for guard main tanks to betray, there is not enough AE raid mobs to make it worthwhile and believe it or not they still have the survivability edge. the guards who are betraying are either heroic tanks first/raid offtanks/whiners who have no clue how to play/are trying to make some bold point about the flip flopping of power. even though zerks are not overpowered the weak betrayal threats still keep coming in, it was obvious when zerks betrayed to guard because we truly lacked much over guards for the last expansion and then some but this is not the case when you look at zerks vs guards in a raid setting currently with the exception of maybe 1 fight(last named in tomb).

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

Thats pretty much what I have been saying on other forums. Its more an issue of content. In RoK instances the Guard is still better than the Zerk. In TSO instances the Zerk may well be better but thats a factor of the devs being lazy and making the differences between zones being gimicky "kill the trash. click on the pole. possess the prisoner" junk rather than balance the over all content.
In raid zones though there really isn't any difference. Maybe my guild is wierd but when we tank stuff its usually "MT take the named, everyone assist through the OT to take the adds. When adds are dropped move to assist MT". In these roles the guardian is still definitely better as the main tank and the Zerker is now seen on paper as a viable OT rather than being seen as the red headed step child.
Now one can argue that the idea of making "single target" vs "AoE" the main part of the balance rather than "offensive" vs "defensive" is a failing proposition because SOE is so lazy when designing the bulk of instance zones. One year it will be single target the next AoE. Then again this wouldn't be a problem either if SOE stopped being lazy would it? So rather than screaming "I need a buff" or "they need a nerf" and perpetuate the never ending over powered/under powered roller coaster, why don't we get on SOE to start designing content that all classes can enjoy. This would also go a long way in helping other classes. Who on one of their other toons (when guildies aren't avail) hasn't been frustrated to see "group lf mezzer", "group looking for plate healer", "group looking for melee dps" when they just don't fit the bill, just close but no cigar? I understand this stuff in raids but a 6 man instance? But no lets just look at something someone else got, rather than putting things into the proper context, see what the real problem is and try to address that.

it's tough to balance content also, because if you have 50% of zones filled to the brim with AE mobs and 50% with all single targets then one side would complain that those zones full with AE mobs are tailored to suit another class while that class also has an edge in the single target zones.. so you see my point that there is no one way they can go and have there not be an issue from one side to the other.
but as it is now, things are fine, zerks are still better heroic tanks and guards now only just a hair better raid tanks. so the guards who are crying, they can always betray, suck it up or they can suck on the pacifier. i'm sure more single target aggro is on the way(for guards, so they maybe can step off the AE>ST aggro, but of course they already knew we were AE tanks...) and i'm going to laugh at the whiners who thought this was exactly how it was going to be for the duration of TSO and whom betrayed in anticipation of that.
we took our seat, we waited it out while we all thought of betrayal but stuck it out so i have no sympathy for things turning a bit more equalled out.

I have to admit. I am extremely pissed and disappointed with SOE regarding what has been done to the Berserker.
I leved to 80 no problem, held my own in all fights. GU 50 somes along and BAM! I can hold agro on friggin GREY mobs now!!!!!
Whatever you did Sony FIX IT!!!!!!!!! Or just delete the dam class!

If you're having trouble holding aggro in TSO you really should rethink your build/play style. I have no trouble at all, even grouped with Mythical geared DPSers with no hate transfer/boost classes. Granted I'm in full raid gear with Mythical, but given all the tools they've given us in the expansion, there's no reason you should be having trouble.

I'm not raid geared. I shouldn't HAVE to be fully raid geared in order to hold agro
So that said, what build should I have? What tools should I have that I am missing?

You pretty much need raid gear in order to hold aggro off other raid gear equipped players. That's been my experience.

Strength 4 is awesome. I'd also reccomend dumping points out of your EoF tree to buy up some of the Shadows tree. The Fighter and Warrior end line abilities help a lot. I'd also recommend reducing the recast on Rescue and putting points in Aggressive Nature (procs a taunt when you block). You'll still have trouble holding aggro off raid geared players if you aren't raid geared, but you should at least have a chance.

Xalmat wrote:

Do not take it personally as I am directing this at the general attitude and not you specifically but... That is absolute BS.
I am not raid geared at all. My armor is all the Di'zok crafted stuff and the rest is heroic dropped, quested or mastercrafted. Even my weapons are mastercrafted. I have maybe 4 or 5 Adept III's and the rest (aside from my M2 pick) is Adept I.
I have done absolute nothing to enchance my aggro directly with AAs (save for one incedental)... I have not bought the STR 4, I have not bought the Shadow enhancements for anything that affects taunts, I don't even have any of the finals in Shadows. I do have the Raging Blow enhancement on the Berserker tree mostly to unlock the shield stun/debuffs though.
I do not raid (due to work) BUT I am in a raid guild. I have no problem holding aggro over raid geared guildies or even raid geared PUGs and I have no problem holding aggro over mythical/raid geared guildies. The only time I "lose aggro" is when I'm grouped with a Brigand. Anyone who understands the nature of a Brigand's abilities should know that this is to be expected.
That's not to say that a raid geared, or even a non-raid geared player, can't take aggro from me if they really wanted to, but they'd probably have to be playing dumb (like not using de-aggros or opening too soon with big hits).

LordDragone wrote:

Trust me I know how you feel. Iam hae nice instance gear but no raid gear yet. Friday night I do Scion of Ice and Anchor of Bazzul. All instance geared people had fun, zero aggro problems.
Last night I go to do Anathema with guildies. All raid geared, 3 have mythicals. Luckily I had two swashies in the group so Swashie A had hate transfer on B and B had hate stensfer on me. One Swash, a ranger and an Assassin (yeah we were scout HEAVY) would yank aggro from me. The ranger and swash would hate dump but I usually had either insolence and resuce and the new fighter line snap tool up and I would slam that and have it back. Made things frantic but not undoable.
gear makes a huge difference, a friend is at least as skilled a serker as I but his gear isn't as good as mine. Similar spell levels, similar skills and AA builds, but I out parse him, dps equals hate. Why do I out parse him? My gear.
If you are in mastercrafted there is light at the end of the tunnel. Get to crafting or harvesting to make plat. Get the armor pieces off the broker that are decent (Raging onslaught has 3 pieces brokerable as an example) This will help you keep aggro and get gear in RoK instances. Then after that get into the new ones and get those dang shards. Some of the starting Shard armor is better than tier 1 and even some tier 2 raid stuff. Thats my plan at least to help level the field. Oh and yell at your ranger to remember his new aggro dump.
As for build I took points out of int and put them into Str 4. Only 3 points though. I am thinking of dumping final Stam and just slam power potions, or get rid of end Int, since I read somewhere that its broke now and thats 2 more points for 5 in it. That helps with all hate including procs off of some our hate generating melee attacks and self buffs.
Also do not be afraid of your taunts. Some zeks forgot we had them(not saying you did just checking to be sure. As soon as they light up I am slamming our taunts (not snap tools).

yes we still can have aggro issues, it's generally how your group buffing sequences go. often times i have to remind the illusionist to put IA on me instead of the scout if i'm having trouble, since my DA is down to about 60% self buffed now and that is with raid gear so i can imagine how non raid zerks are. the other issue is the hit rates in some of these zones... they are rediculous, like in guk my hit rate drops down to around 40%.. it's just stupid and even with hate transfers it can be a real pain maintaining aggro even in full offensive and that is with my bulwark of the unstoppable buff up running dual wield with my healers complaining about me not using a shield but then we move to another zone like the anchors in moors and i destroy the mobs doing 15k from doing 2-3k in guk.
things are just screwy, there is no fluidity from one zone to the next, there is alot of randomness, too much in fact. i just hate getting to some of those mobs you have to roll the dice on knowing that skill is not what is going to get that mob to 0 before you do. but this is what we get from those HC raiders who wanted a "challenge", i already could tell you that if you continue to push it will continue to break the game driving the gap from casual to hardcore further away, bring more of these random fights to the game, increase the amount of work to do the same job we used to do but with no additional self satisfaction, etc. i just find as time goes on we get more skills, but they aren't necessarily making the game any easier for us, because even with a 2 hit stoneskin it doesn't matter if you are humping a wall for half a fight or beating up your groupmates or staring at your mob with grey buttons...
basically i'm saying people do have some legitimate complaints, some not, but mainly i put the brunt of the issues people are having on the mobs themselves because people complained that tank and spank was too easy so now you play in a pinball world humping that wall in a perma stifle. now i'm thinking the guard mythical isn't such a pos... this isn't really a complaint about TSO, i'm still enjoying most of it except for a few of those encounters but i do feel a number of the tanks do have legitimate complaints, i don't feel the game should be easymode but it should be doable for players who do not have full RoK raid gear and mythicals doing 25k group DPS. mainly it's about being choosy about your group makeup, as with any expansion you will have to be picky about who you bring with you and the classes, if you are just spamming "LF3 more of any class" in open channels to fill out a group, don't expect to do well.