So what do you think of the DarkPaw Games announcement?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by Games'nGhosts, Jan 21, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wulfgyr I've got friends in EQ2Wire places

    This!! Spot on Gilly, I agree 1000% percent. I played Black Desert Online for a bit on the console when it was in beta, and I believe the pearl shop was mainly appearance/vanity items, like ESO. Not sure what it's like now, since my time there was short compared to the years I sank into ESO (again, console version). Loot boxes in ESO were one of the primary factors behind my departure. Like you, I absolutely detest the things in all forms - it's why I won't go near any franchise that has them. I also haven't touched a cobalt crate for that very reason. :)

    I also agree that companies should be required to post the odds and payouts - if you are paying real money for something without receiving a definitive good or service in return it's gambling, plain and simple. Preying on people that may not have the sense of fiscal responsibility to make informed decisions is probably a discussion that's outside the scope of these forums, though.
  2. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.

    As a returning veteran who played much of Chaos Descending (and EQ1), I did not feel coercion or manipulation. I am not sure if some of the posters here have played the game recently.

    I was happy to obtain mounts and mercenaries as drops in Solo and Heroic missions. Infusers were more than abundant. The CD sig line rewarded players with Epic spells. The Dragon Attack event offered generous amounts of mount and mercenary gear as well as spell mats. You could have crap gear to join PQs and still get the top rewards.

    I ignored the Cobalt Crates. And it seems that many raiders simply enjoyed the Cobalt armor/weapon cosmetics (i.e. blue kilts).

    I bought 1 Premium Edition expansion to support the game and to be able to easily /claim a fire and air mount.

    Krono are an affordable in-game alternative to pay for All Access subscription (minus plat dupe during Dragon Attack).

    Since the majority of EQ1 and EQ2 players are overwhelming adults (these are very old games), I see limited risk for minors to abuse their parents' credit card.

    I, however, will agree with criticism about stat bloat and complexity in the game. Stats are not streamlined or cohesive (augment types are turned off); arbitrary numbers are set (req. resolve/potency) to do content.
  3. Almee Well-Known Member

    As most of you know, I was very angry about DB's lack of transparency with the BoL xpac. My main gripes revolved around the persistent mounts and paying for mounts that we couldn't fly without doing signature quests.

    DB has resolved the persistent mount problem. At least I hope they have. I haven't had a chance to go back and see if the mounts disappear in dungeons or when I'm on the ground harvesting. I sincerely thank DB for making those changes.

    I still think it was rotten to sell us a mount we couldn't use in BoL without doing the signature lines. We should be free to do our own thing in the game and that may, or may not, include doing signature lines which are very linear so you either complete all the quests or fail. I have no idea why DB assumed everyone would be able to complete either the adventure or TS sig line and thus be able to use the BoL mounts. The xpac is over a month old and I don't have one character that can fly yet.

    I think DB is trying to be more transparent but it seems more hit or miss according to the people involved. But they have a ways to go before I will trust the company again after being burned on so many purchases like Landmark, Dungeon Maker, BoL, etc.

    Despite this, I am hoping that they are successful in launching a new EQ game with a better engine. I probably won't play it, because Holly says it is going to require grouping, but I'm sure there are lots of players who will love that.
    Rhodris, Mizgamer62 and Pixistik like this.
  4. Gillymann Abusive Relationships Aren't Healthy. J S.

    Well, I'm not necessarily speaking to selling tactics.

    To understand what I mean by manipulation/coersion, consider for example whats currently going on with expert spells.

    Eq2's p2w and cash shop incentives are indirect ones. It's not "you need to beat this mob to progress, so here's a nice peice of power-enhancing gear in the shop for $5 or $10.

    What eq2 does is combine some character-power leveling system with scarcity, and where that scarcity is often enabled by rng mechanics. These probabilities are 100% a hidden mechanic, and what they do give people the "illusion" they have reasonable alternatives when in fact they do not.

    Back to our example of expert spells, what eq2 has done is set up a system of conditional probabilities for recipes. First, you need to get an eligible overseer quest. Then you need the right chest to drop. Then you need a bonus chest to the right chest to drop. Then you need a book to drop. And lastly, you need the book you want to drop. Even if you ignored the last step and counted on broker inventories, just the probability of ANY book dropping is so absurdly right of the decimal as to be laughable.

    This year the dominant character power mechanic is rooted in abilities and the level increase. Next year, it might be ascensions and so forth.

    Of course, no one is forced to buy spell research, but if they want to run heroics or raid, they may feel compelled to pay for some or all ability upgrades if they haven't been able to obtain them in-game.

    The character power element changes each year, but the mechanic is always the same: the cash shop is positioned as an alternative to in-game scarcity, and hidden rng mechanics give people the illusion they have reasonable alternatives.

    Of course, probabilities can be loosened up or tightened up without any of us the wiser. And also, if you have no need of increased character power soon or even at all, then the shop is irrelevant to your goals.

    In general, eq2 relies heavily on creating illusions by manipulating appearances. This can be observed in PL's and traced all the way down processes in which information is connected sales/revenue.

    But one thing is for certain, each year they they've further constrained some self-sufficiency component to benefit the shop.
  5. Feldon Well-Known Member

    Hey now let's not get carried away.

    As for EQ2 Marketplace in general, they've crossed the line well into selling player power. I know some people deny it. That does not change the facts though.
    Juraiya, Tekka, Agarth and 11 others like this.
  6. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.


    I think your underlying assumption - completion (or top end) requirement - is suspect. EQ2 players are accustomed to not being "end game" or having all or most best-in-slot or best-in-abilities. If anything, there are individual opportunity costs and trade offs as well as augmentation among group or guild members.

    It is not necessary to do good or even feel good with max Celestial spells.

    For example, on EQ1, there are chase tradable loot drops (raid quality equivalent from previous expansion) that would be nice to have but are not required at all. No one regards it as manipulation even though you can buy Krono to buy these items off of other players.

    There is no requirement in this game to have all or most end game abilities (or gear).


    You are attributing pernicious or malicious motives to Darkpaw Games. One can argue that the EQ2 team's model is to allow for a wide range of specialization and/or mastery. The RNG aspect enhances with diversity of both decision making and in-game power with regards to player progression. Furthermore, you can go to other players and broker for components that you may need which enhances that experience.

    The marketplace's prices are so outrageous that I doubt people are dropping $100s on spell upgrades. You are talking to adults and very few impulsive, instant gratification kids.


    Even assuming that players cannot forgo end game capabilities, Daybreak/Darkpaw understands that they can't undermine/cheapen the durability of various systems (e.g. regular spells, Ascensions). Instead of attributing a sort of conspiracy theory (malicious motive), using Occham's Razor, the simplest and most likely explanation is that they are moving on from old systems (where many people are satisfied) to new systems (new spells, new goals).


    This I agree with. This statement undermines your entire argument.

    It is less about conspiracy theories (malicious motives to cash in) and more about disliking the optional but steep power curve (game model).
    Cyrrena likes this.
  7. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.


    Players are accustomed to not being end-game (best-in-slot gear, best-in-slot abilities). It is not necessary for everyone to have max Celestial spells. You can augment needs (lower/higher ranked spells) among group and guild members.

    You cannot attribute malicious or pernicious motives to Daybreak or Darkpaw Games. That borders on conspiracy theories.

    One can argue that the EQ2 teams seeks to expand the diversity of experience with different paths to specialization and/or mastery. In other words, each person/character has their own strengths and weaknesses (as opposed to a cookie cutter end game archetype). EQ2 may closely resemble the steep curves of Eve Online: it's cool to own capital ships but not necessary to enjoy the game.

    Edit: If you don't like the game model (fairly optional steep power curve), then it is less about conspiracy theories (malicious motive to cash in) and more about disliking the model itself.
  8. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.

    Buying upgrades to Celestial spells (or any other power granting facet) is like owning capital ships on EVE Online or Star Citizen.

    Yeah, it's prestigious and powerful but not necessary to enjoy the game.

    Therefore, it is not coercive or manipulative as some have wanted to characterize it as. Unfortunately, the characterizations here are bordering on conspiracy theories (lots of assumptions about motive and modus operandi have to be right). Using Occham's Razor, new systems means new goals (you can ignore marketplace).

    Edit: If they decide to link actual game enjoyment to the marketplace (e.g. lock zones or PQs behind marketplace-only keys), then I'll be the first critic here!
    Cyrrena likes this.
  9. Gillymann Abusive Relationships Aren't Healthy. J S.


    Assert that a I am assuming things, and then refute my arguments with your own assumptions?

    My entire argument is based on an understanding of statistical reasoning. There is a reason why I used expert spells as an example. And you are correct, my repeated use of the word "illusion" was intended.

    You're fee to your opinions. Enjoy.
    Ashandra, Feldon and Mizgamer62 like this.
  10. Games'nGhosts Active Member

    How did my thread take a turn? If you want to derail it start your own thread or post on one of the 30 others. I said nothing about the new expansion, nothing about gear or drops. My question was about DarkPaw Games. You people can't even stay on topic. Disgusting.
    Breanna, Juraiya, Feldon and 4 others like this.
  11. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.



    While your arguments are based on "statistical reasoning", my arguments are based on logical reasoning.

    You cannot attribute motive/mens rea (malicious or benign) based on statistical analysis (which is bare bones and rough in your original post). It's like Alex Jones attributing WTC Towers falling to an "inside job" because, statistically/scientifically speaking, jet fuel shouldn't melt steel. Lol.

    You are avoiding any of my really powerful counterarguments such as the optionality of upgrades (as opposed to a requirement to play the game).

    You may continue to spout your conspiracy theories but people will refute them unless you have hard evidence or anything beyond innuendo.
  12. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.



    Sorry. Gillymann and some of his crew have turned this thread into a conspiracy theory thread about Daybreak cashing in.

    Edit: Dreamweaver said it was OK to refute arguments (as long as it was not personal, etc).
  13. Rhodris EQ2Wire Ninja

    My view about Darkpaw Games is that Daybreak has split the titles into their own entities for a couple of reasons:

    1. They can sell off each title piecemeal if they wish
    2. If one of the titles tanks, it won't take down the rest of the parent company - it can just be split off and liquidated as a failed standalone business entity.

    Edit: So for me, it's a purely commercial decision, and while Longdale remains in control of the EQ and EQ2 titles, we will not see any change for the better manifesting in the game.
    EmJay, Quillyne, Finnwizz and 6 others like this.
  14. Gillymann Abusive Relationships Aren't Healthy. J S.

    Well, what exactly is the question you're asking?

    Your question was about what people think about the Darkpaw announcement.

    I see people answering it in different ways, but they're all on topic. You asked what we think about rebranding and repositioning to Darkpaw, and we're telling you along with our reasons.

    The short story consensus seems to be: nothing of substance has changed, nothing different is expected, and lot of different opinions and reasons as to why.

    I dunno. The question is a pretty broad one, but a good question to ask.
    Mizgamer62 likes this.
  15. Geroblue Well-Known Member

    I fully agree. They should take their silliness to their own posting thread.
    Breanna and Wulfgyr like this.
  16. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.



    I asked that we take this to EQ2Wire forums but Gillymann and others insisted that is be kept here. Now that my refutations are effective, he probably wants to change venue himself.
  17. Rhodris EQ2Wire Ninja

    I have just discovered that the 'ignore' function on the forum boards is a truly beautiful thing....
    Breanna, Juraiya, Feldon and 7 others like this.
  18. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.

    Pick a venue but expect the scrutiny and arguments/counterarguments won't change.
    Cyrrena likes this.
  19. Gillymann Abusive Relationships Aren't Healthy. J S.

    Yeah. I just added my very first name to my ignore list. Problem solved.
    Juraiya, EmJay, Quillyne and 6 others like this.
  20. Benito Ancient EQ2 Player: Lavastorm Server 2004.



    What happened to intellectual honesty?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.