So what do we do if the hotfix does not make us viable?

Yes we did do too much damage, outdamaging couts was wrong, but why are we worse damage than monks? Im tired of people seeing the big shiny armor and assuming we must be big hard tanks-we really arent, a zerker by no means tanks better than a monk, and our damage should be more or less the same as theirs. People are pissed off because SOE did a hard hit on our DPS and kept our vastly inferior defense and mitigation exactly the same. Like i said in another thread-guardian is ultimate defense tank, great mitigation good parry/dodge, monk has poor mitigation and very high avoidance, so when hit he is hit hard, good DPS has been give nto them to make up for defensive shortcomings, now the zerker should be low parry/riposte skills with good mitigation, meaning that overall them and monks should take same damage while guardians take a lot less...zerker DPS should be as good as the monks, if monk DPS is not overpowering then why would a zerkers be if its the same? Dont be fooled by the pretty shiny plate armor

Sigh its not me being mad I just dont understand why you continue to troll about issues that not only dont effect you but also are over a class you have never played.

I think this a good idea (with further thought). Would take some of the sting out of recent events.

Why do you do less damage than monks? I'll tell you why. Straight from the horse's mouth:

There have been many posts lately about recent changes to the berserker class. I thought I would talk a bit about the reasons for these changes and the goal for balancing going forward.

Before the update on January 6, berserkers could outdamage most other classes--usually by a considerable margin. This not only unbalanced the fighter archetype, but the relative power of the other archetypes as well. This required that several berserker abilities be adjusted. While no class likes to have their damage output reduced, change was needed for the health of the game.

In terms of damage output, berserkers are intended to fall behind bruisers and monks. Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian.

We are in the process of evaluating the damage output of all professions to see if they perform as we want them to. We will make further changes to the overall potency of spells and arts in order to achieve our desired results.

Regardless of how we balance the classes, there will be some people who don't agree with our decisions. A lot of the distinctions in class balance are subtle ones, prone to emotional interpretation--especially when players make such an personal investment in their characters. While balance will be one of the gameplay elements we focus on over the next couple weeks, it will also be an ongoing process.

In the wake of these changes you may not believe this, but we want berserkers to enjoy their characters and their role in the game. I hope that you can understand why changes like this happen, even if you personally don't agree with them. I regret that we didn't provide more warning that these changes were coming, especially when they affected so many players.
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Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy
[/QUOTE]

"...zerker DPS should be as good as the monks." ??? The answer to this is: clearly it should not.

Message Edited by Aelis on 01-11-2005 11:25 AM

"...zerker DPS should be as good as the monks." ??? The answer to this is: clearly it should not.

Message Edited by Aelis on 01-11-2005 11:25 AM

And i ask why? Berserker tanking ability and monk tanking ability are very much the same, the difference now is that monks do more damage killing quicker making them better tanks. Berserker tanked by killing quicker than the mob could kill him... like the monk does. Our ability to dodge and mitigate damage is actually very poor and with the DPS taken away we are at a disadvantage. Im not seeing why monks are to be doing plenty more damage than us, im not seeing why we should be doing barely noticable more damage than the guardian because if you ask a healer they can tell you that the tanking ability between zerker and guardian is very noticable
[/QUOTE]

Why, you ask? ... because the designers say so. It's as simple as that. Read it again if you haven't gotten the point yet.... and then read it twice more for good measure until you do.

There have been many posts lately about recent changes to the berserker class. I thought I would talk a bit about the reasons for these changes and the goal for balancing going forward.

Before the update on January 6, berserkers could outdamage most other classes--usually by a considerable margin. This not only unbalanced the fighter archetype, but the relative power of the other archetypes as well. This required that several berserker abilities be adjusted. While no class likes to have their damage output reduced, change was needed for the health of the game.

In terms of damage output, berserkers are intended to fall behind bruisers and monks. Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian.

We are in the process of evaluating the damage output of all professions to see if they perform as we want them to. We will make further changes to the overall potency of spells and arts in order to achieve our desired results.

Regardless of how we balance the classes, there will be some people who don't agree with our decisions. A lot of the distinctions in class balance are subtle ones, prone to emotional interpretation--especially when players make such an personal investment in their characters. While balance will be one of the gameplay elements we focus on over the next couple weeks, it will also be an ongoing process.

In the wake of these changes you may not believe this, but we want berserkers to enjoy their characters and their role in the game. I hope that you can understand why changes like this happen, even if you personally don't agree with them. I regret that we didn't provide more warning that these changes were coming, especially when they affected so many players.
===========================
Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy
[/QUOTE]

DESIGNERS INTENTIONALLY WANT MONKS TO DO MORE DAMAGE THAN BESERKERS. Got it?

Why do they want monks to do more damage than beserkers? Who knows... ask the devs.

Well thank you for those posts, they were about as useful as a condom machine in a convent. I ask why arent we supposed to do as much damage as monks, you spam me all sorts of stuff about devs saying 'we should not do as much damage as monks' then at the end say how you dont know why monks should do more damage than us either

Asteldian, I want to let you know that it is not my intention to pick on you but there is something else I need to point out.

You make the claim that "Berserker tanking ability and monk tanking ability are very much the same...". You're using this as a basis for your argument that beserker DPS should be equivalent to monk DPS. First of all, your claim not substantiated. You make this outrageous claim without any justification. How do you know monk tanking ability and beserker tanking ability are largely the same? Have you done any data mining on SOE's EQII databases for monk damage taken over thousands and thousands of trials and then some statistical analysis on top of that? Have you done that for beserkers? If so, please post your data and prove your basis.
It may turn out that not even SOE employees investigate class balance with that kind of vigor. In the end they may base class balance (which should be mathematically rigorous) merely on touchy feely aspects. In that case and only in that case would you have a point. But for now you pass off your highly opinionated/biased claim as gospel to everyone else and demand that you be given something (monk DPS) that you should not receive (according to "The Design"). Until the design regarding beserker DPS changes, you have absolutely no leg to stand on.
In the end "the numbers" may show that beserker tanking ability does not match up to what it is intended to be (according to "The Design"). If that is the case then I would agree that perhaps beserker tanking ability should be boosted somehow. Heck, if any part of the beserker class in fact incongruent with Design, I would hope it would be fixed to match the vision for the class. That goes for any and all classes, actually.

Stop asking for something which you clearly do not deserve (according to design). Ask for fixes for those things which are not working as intended.

I did not say I don't know why monks should do more damage than beserkers. I do know. I'll tell you. Monks should do more damage than beserkers because the devs say so. If you don't like it that's just too damned bad.

The problem is, the time period used by SOE to investigate was the time period where bloodlust was completely fubared, and bloodrage probably too. our dps was grossely overrated at the time, and the nerf decision was based on the observation of a bugged skill behaviour.

Now we got the fix AND the nerf, and went from outstanding to bland overnight.

That gave me the impression that you did not know. 'Because the devs say so' is not a good enough reason, we are beyond the days of school kids replying 'because..' as an answer to a question, and im a bit to old to accept the partent speaking to child reply of 'because i say so!'. We've asked the devs a lot of things and so far had very litle in the way of replies and reasons.

You are right, i have no solid proof that berserkers and monks tank the same, its mostly guess work from playing both classes, but the state the game is in and judging by how EQ1 went, dont be too surprised if Sonys 'extensive' testing isnt much different :smileyvery-happy:

And btw, i have never made any demands, i made suggestions, there is a big difference. I said we should do monk DPS, i guess that sounds a bit bossy, perhaps 'i think we should do monk DPS' would have sounded less pushy, i didnt really worry too much about the wording as im pretty sure devs arent going to read it and say 'yikes! He wants monk DPS, quick let him have it!'

Look... I'm not trying to be argumentative here but "because the devs say so" IS good enough reason. It's their design, not yours.

I'm not trying to argue that you should do the crappiest damage of all classes. Maybe the implementation was botched when they coded the adjustment to beserker DPS... it certainly wouldn't be the first time. What I am arguing against, however, is you doing monk DPS. The designers do not want beserkers doing monk DPS, period. ... and that is the *only* way we of the player-base (read "non designers") can answer the "why shouldn't beserkers do as much DPS as a monk" question. I don't know any other way to put it. You don't like the design but what can you do? If you want monk DPS as one of the "tank" classes then play a monk.
Message Edited by Aelis on 01-11-2005 05:29 PM

These boards are the closest we as players can get to devs which is why i asked the question here. It would just be nice to know what the devs think we as zerkers are supposed to do, they have stated we are to be weaker DPS than a monk and that we are slightly better than guardian at DPS, that suggests we are meant to be slightly worse at tanking, but we are very clearly not, our tanking is closer to the monks than it is the guardians and our DPS is closer to the guardians than it is the monks, i'd like to know what they plan, we either have to be tanking similar to guardian but slightly better DPS while slightly lower in defense ability or tank similar to monk, slightly better defensively and slightly less DPS, now i suggested we be more like the monk because people made the berserker for that extra bit of punch and thats what they enjoy, so far ive seen no one want to be more defense orientated. I wanted to tank but i liked the idea of doing decent damage (having played pally for a long time in EQ1 it was refreshing to be a tank that could hurt things) now monk is ok, i have one and its quite fun, but i love the plate graphic and thats why i prefer to be the zerker aggressive tank instead of the monk aggressive tank
Message Edited by asteldian on 01-11-2005 05:40 PM

Then maybe you should be arguing with the devs to change the class description with what they have in mind. That is the problem with words: They are left for interpretation.