So, my monk is now almost lvl 29 and I see a huge difference

I am actually alot happier with our tanking now too. My giant group today had a 25 monk tanking pretty much all day. And things went pretty well. We fought up to 28++ giants. Although the 25 troubador was against it at first. They actually thought they could tank just as well as a monk. So one pull the troubador taunted and got aggro on purpose. That silly bard got smacked down and made our healer go oom. It was quite funny.

Well, 33 now, gone just about all over runnyeye. Killed the named minotaur (cerebral or whatever and he drops a nice high level baton) past the banker and armorer. Monks are better now that they can use shields. I got a shield and a 1h blunt for tank mode.

Still at 33 and fully buffed I have around 2.2k hps and around 1900ac. Thats not bad at my lvl. I know some guardains who have like 2600 ac at my level and they tank very well. The thing I find the most irritating is the avoidance. Against even cons or lower it works okay and its easy to manage with the proper group. However when we go down and kill lvl 41ish named mobs in runnyeye, well the plate tank is way superior. Monks can tank, but its still no where equal.

Now, I really just find myself being more useful in a group as dps/utility. Which unfortunately is not the role of a fighter, thats a scout or a mages role.

One thing that also really bugs me is the item thats dropped. I have gloves, boots, and bracers I got from runnyeye I cant wear until im like level 42. I mean, whats the point of having an area where a group of level 35ish people can get loot they can't use for almost 10 levels? My quest armor is turning green. I replaced my bp with another bp, and replaced my legs with better ones. However, its still very hard to find good light armor to wear in your mid 30s. I find some tailored stuff but its mostly low blue and green as is, and offers extremely little improvement (if any) to my current gear.

I got some merchant bought armor that offers more ac, however it seems the lack of resists hurts me in dungeons more than the lack of the attributes and AC. If it were not for the + to the resists I would scrap most my green armor and get vendor bought orange for the AC.

I know from a DEVs perspective this problem is probably tough to tackle. How do you improve whats broke but maintain balance? Truth is, since I tank so randomly (sometimes way too good, and others way too poor) its really hard to tell. Where plate tanks, you pretty much know their abilities no matter what the situation is.

Also, this is off topic, but dirges can actually break berzerkers taunt. I noticed it today in my group. Our dirge was pulling mobs off the zerker. Just found that interesting, since everyone else seems tohave problems out taunting zerkers.

Well, the word on the street that "Monks can't tank" trickled down into the level 20 players in Thunder Steppes and proceeded to make my life as a monk miserable for a few days.

I was in a makeshift group with some guild members to do AQ5. Fury, Mystic and myself (monk). I kept up Brawler's Stance all day, kept Tranquil Blessing on the Fury and used Martial Focus whenever it was up and refreshed Staggering Stance whenever the timer crept close to expiring. With Fury buffs, I was @ 90 agility.

Against yellow ^^ mobs, I had little problem tanking. Occasionally when the RNG was unforgiving, I'd get hit 3 times in a row. But, especially against giants and griffons, I could go 5-10 rounds sustaining 0 damage, ward not included.

Swarm Beetles(yellow, 6 in a group) were only a problem when they tried to spread out a get behind me (where deflection skills don't help).

I'm looking forward to more agility and some harder mobs.

Man, I'm so frustrated and annoyed right now. I have no clue how people are saying deflection was fixed. I just got killed by 1 yellow solo corpse feeder in TS. I've had to break encounter like 4 times and FD because I keep almost getting killed by these. Its one freaking yellow crab and I can't even solo it with 4 AQ armors, app 3 and adept 1 spells and the rest of my armor is yellow or white. This class is just totally **mods 4 teh win!!1!**.

Nevermind what I said, apparently they destroyed deflection again today in their "ninja" patch. I tanked like absolute poo today. Take your freaking woodens shields and burn them in protest. /rude sony!!!!

Seriously, when are they gonna do something about this? Can we get this issue resolved please? I'd love to be able to play my avoidance tank. Is that possible?

~
Message Edited by Justin21 on 12-06-2004 10:18 PM

This seems to be the core of the tanking monk dispute:

mitigate
v 1: lessen or to try to lessen the seriousness or extent of;
I'm of the opinion that monks are intended to fill this role. If we weren't, as so many people are trying desperately to persuade others, then our huge array of skills in the taunting and defense lines are a waste of space in my knowledge book.
The largest asset of the archetype system is that it removes the dependency of any one class or subclass from groups/raids. Gone are the days when you must have 30% of your raid force made up of clerics. Each class and subclass within their chosen archetype is able to adequately replace any other of their archetype, though the method in which they do so may not be the same.
YES, it's true. All things being equal, monks will never mitigate damage as well as a plate tank. Melee mitigation, the ability to absorb and lessen melee damage, is largely determined by armor class. As a class that wears light armor, this is often not our strong suit. HOWEVER, this in no way means that we cannot tank as well. Mitigation and tanking are completely different entities. They are not the synonyms that many of the previous posts in this forum would leave you to believe.
While mitigation is one aspect of tanking, low mitigation does not necessarily correlate with low ability to tank. Equally important, if not more so, is avoidance- the ability to dodge/parry/deflect, completely escaping harm by an incoming melee attack. This is the variance that allows the brawler class to hold their own in the tanking role of a group. True, we'll never avoid every blow sent our direction, but I believe that we avoid enough damage to equal the amount mitigated away by a plate tank class.
Speaking from personal experience, I am nearly always the tank for my groups- even when killing mobs seven levels above myself. All that's needed are a few necessary preparations: A defensive stance,(Brawler's stance/ Sweeping Crane,) something from the staggering stance line, and the short term deflection boost(martial focus, karmic focus, etc). For the extremely difficult nameds, I find it useful to enhance my mitigation as much as possible once I've established aggro. If this means rooting myself with Face the Mountain or pulling out a 225ac round shield to bring me up to 2050 total ac, they're sacrifices I'll gladly make to no longer be a tanking reserve.
Marsellus
37th Monk of Guk.
Message Edited by Justin21 on 12-06-2004 10:16 PM

I think they have given monks a very useful and interesting role in group tanking, one which should make them quite highly desired.

A monk is not a tank, but what a monk does is MAKE YOUR TANK BETTER.

A DPS melee class with decent utility, who boosts the tanking abilities of your tank.

Tests have shown that using bare fists (i.e. no weapon equiped in primary) is only about 10% less effective than using good weapon(s). When you consider that only about 1/3 of your damage comes from weapon DPS and the rest from combat arts, that means you only lose about 3% of your damage output. Put a shield in secondary to boost your AC and blocking skills, and cast staggering stance on the Main Tank, and suddenly you are blocking his damage like crazy, while still putting out a lot (almost certainly out-damaging him).

I like it. A lot. A good group asset.

Zadkiel.

always teh double post.
Message Edited by Justin21 on 12-07-2004 02:23 PM

You do realize, I hope, that all fighter classes receive this ability under a different name. This is hardly a new "very useful and interesting role" for monks. Nor will it make monks "quite highly desired."
Brawler- Staggering Stance(L 18) : Allows the brawler to shield their allies from attacks and increases the brawler's agility.
Warrior- Stand Firm(L 18): Allows the warrior to shield allies from attacks.
Crusader- Ancient Pledge(L 18): Allows the crusader to shield his allies from attacks and increases the defense of his shielded allies.
I honestly don't see why everyone is so desperate to turn monks into a second-rate fighter. I chose this archetype because I wanted the control to lead and direct groups. Perhaps you need the comfort of having someone else to rely on to make those calls, but it's not true for all of us. Please, stop trying to limit the rest of us with your opinions of what a monk cannot do.

Due to deflection being broken, fixed, broken again, its hard to know really just how effective we are at tanking. One things for sure, teh whole shield thing sucks, i wish they'd given it as an ability to bracers or even natural ability-monk with shield very uncool and how i look matters to me.

When all is working properly if monks really are terrible at tanking it needs tos be seen to, no we cant be as reliable and good as plate classes, but that should not mean we cant be a good tank. If avoidance isnt enough then they should consider giving the monk natural improved mitigation, obviously leaving it far behind the mitigation the plate tanks are getting from their armor, but closing the gap enough to allow a monk to tank

The main difference between these 3 skills are the following: Staggering stance not only raises mitigation, but also has equal chance to block as the crusader and warriors skill does. The warrior skill is the worse out of the three and the Crusaders only raises AC.

IMHO Mitigation+Chance to them not hit tank>AC+Chance to not hit tank. The AC is so nominal that the mitigation is easily better.
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I personally think fighting with a shield as a monk looks cool. I would much rather have a shield (which can have stats) and my fists than just have a staff which can have stats and no added AC. While your look could mean alot to you, you look even dumb dead and even dumber when your group dies.

First, I would like to point out that I personally would love to trade some of my defensive and taunting skills for more DPS. Scouts should not be unilaterally the melee damage kings. They get a lot of utility skills that offset any balancing issues, and I do not see any groups choosing a brawler over a scout if brawlers dished out more DPS than they currently do. I knew that I was not going to be a huge damage dealer when I created this toon, but that did not deter me. Monks just look too cooI. I still hope that the EQ2 design team will see the light :smileytongue:

As for the topic at hand, I had a pretty funny situation happen to me last night. I was invited to a pick-up group that intended to take Grolven Chiptooth in Antonica. The group consisted of: 19 Warrior (MT), 19 Crusader (ST), 20 Summoner, 17'ish scout, 16 druid, and me a 19 brawler. After buffing up, the warrior pulls Chiptooth and proceeds to lose health very quick rate. The druid was having a very hard time keeping him off the red. Some time later, the warrior dies with Chiptooth at 3/4 health. The Crusader quickly taunts Chiptooth and repeats the warriors fate. The druid was just having a hard time getting the heals to refresh on time before the tanks got killled. With Chiptooth at a bit over 1/2 health, and the summoner crying for retreat, I engaged the gnoll thinking to give the druid enough time to run to the Blackburrow entrance. An this is when the funny thing happened. I was surviving! I would get hit, and get hit harder than the other tanks, but a lot less often, giving the Druid enough time to refresh the heals and keep me alive. We ended up killing Chiptooth right on top of the corpses of the warrior and the crusader.

I know this was entirely situational, and obviously at these levels its a whole different ball game from 20+, but perhaps this was how the developers intended monk tanking to be throughout all the levels, yet have not been able to implement it. Either way, I still stand firm by my opinion that we should be a DPS class and not a tank, fighter class or no fighter class.

well, I am almost level 35 now. I have done some tanking in some higher level areas, and I can pull it off. However, not anywhere as equal as any other tanks.

That is the sole point of this thread. Yes, monks can tank, but they are just not equal. However using group tactics is always a plus with your monk. Have a guardian buff you out or if you are playing back up tank buff out the plate tank. I find it very effective when I group with my zerker guildmate. I cast my deflection buffs on him and he doesn't hit nearly as much, even against mobs 6 lvls higher than him.

As for the shields, I don't think it looks very cool, but I'll use them for the AC. Also, I think that the light armor drops are busted. As a monk I am collecting full sets of chian an plate armor from runnyeye because all the people in my group already have the armor they need from the zone. Then I get stuck trying to trade my medium and plate armor for light armor to someone. I mean the drop tables in this game are kinda messed up. The light armor I do have I cannot use until I am level 42ish. That doesn't make sense.

They need to tweak the monk. I'd say slightly more DPS, and little mitigation with deflection as it is currently. Obviously, it will be a significant amount less mitigation than a plate tank. Remember I am not asking monks to be uber, I am asking them to be equal.

I will post a full set of tactics that I have found useful with the monk and other classes when I have the time to do so.

Plenty of light armor drops in RE. Did you do the quests for the nice pants and chest? I currently use a very-light helm/gloves because I like the stats and the hit on AC isn't that big, but my chest/sleeves/pants are all stat'd light armor for 32-38.
I have a full suit of armor ready for 42+ as well and some nice cestii.
I should be 36 by the end of the night tonight I'd guess.
Still very happy with my monk.

I did the bp and the legs quest. Lost the light armor boots that drop from the elite (the engraved leather boots) to a druid. I will not sacrifice the ac hit from very light armor from the light armor. The very light boots that drop there are 15 less ac than i currently have. However, I do have a full set of the spellbound medium armor, and the blackened plate armor in my bank because all the tanks and clerics in my guild have pretty much full sets now. So, if you are on my server and want to trade some level 35+ light armor for some medium or heavy send me a tell.

I have a bunch of level 42 + armor and accessories from RE. I got boots, bracer, neck, 3 wrists, helmet for 42+. However, due to the fact that I have almost a full set of medium and heavy means that light doesn't drop nearly enough.

Looking at the skills that a monk gets, this is the way I perceive sony's vision of a monk in EQ2.

We are not the best dps and we are not the best tanks, however through the use of our various matial art stances I think we are designed to fill the role of either position - that of a dps or a tank. If this was in fact the way it was intended I personally think that's awsome. I would gladly give up the title of "the best" to have the option of being either. What really kills me is you guys saying that you would give up some of our tanking abilities for more damage. Why? If you wanted a dps class then why didn't you make a wizard or a scout? Why did you choose a subclass in fighter if you wanted to be dps?? I don't want to give up my tanking. I think most of you assumed that the monk would be like a monk in EQ1 or EQLive. Its not the same game. Don't assume the same priniciples apply.

Just the other day I was completing my EL access quests and was doing the boat ride. We had a level 28 paladin that was tanking for us. During the fight he was knocked to the other side of the boat outside of healer range and died. Earlier in the fight I had thrown off a shout and a taunt on the demon - "just in case". So after the paladin went down, I, of course, got agro. I spam the word heal a couple of times and drag the demon/skeletons to the middle of the boat. I tanked them, the healers kept me healed, and the big demon went down.

In this moment, I was really proud of my class. I was glad that I was able to fill in the role of the tank and see the fight through till the end. Do I want to give this up? No! If had to pick between tanking and dps, I'd choose tanking, but as I was saying earlier I think SOE designed us to fill in the role of either. Just look at our martial arts stances - we have some that boost all of our defensive abilities but kills our offense; we have some that boost our offense but kills our defense. It makes sense to me that they intended for us to use these stances to assume the role of either position.

I think the monk still needs a bit of tweaking, but once they get these "kinks" worked out we'll be an extremely fun class to play. I love having options and that seems to be what a monk was designed for. If you want to be dps, go make a scout or a nuker. Me? Im sticking with versatility.

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear. I knew when I created the monk that I was not going to be the DPS king. Obviously, If I wanted to be the super damage dealer, I would have made a wizzy or an assasin. Yet, as a personal opinion, I rather not tank at all and be a pure dps class. If I could have made a scout that fought kung-fu style, then I would have gone with it 100%, but it is only wishful thinking. If that is how they portrayed monks in EQ1, oh well, I could not care less. I play EQ2.
Also, beleive me when I say this, right now monks do very good damage. I am not complaining about that. As soon as deflection gets fixed, I bet that we will be great secondary tanks and excellent DPS, which seems to be the original vision for monks in EQ2.

Sadly the monk will always be a hard class to keep good-it will forever be hitting balance issues, why? For the same reason you like it-being able to do both DPS and tank, eventually there is a good chance we'll find ourselves wanting upgrades to our tanking or our DPS due to neither cutting it by game standards, as result we will have the other tanks complain and scouts complain resulting in us being stuck. This is what happened with the paladin in EQ1, everytime something was requested warriors and clerics complained and eventually the paladin was a poor class. So yes the utility is great, but it comes at high risk of becoming nothing

I soloed a red ^^ from orange hp to dead while my group wiped today (^: Clay golem in Varsoon. I suprisingly took almost no damage, but that was with martial focus and toughness doing in brawler's stance. Of course, earlier I tanked a spider and both healers were at half power from healing me - avoidance spike dps strikes again!