So much woe is me QQ on the troub....

Discussion in 'Troubador' started by ARCHIVED-bellemort, May 1, 2012.

  1. ARCHIVED-bellemort Guest

    I really don't get it, admittedly, I started my troub back in november 2011, not the oldest kid on the block with a troub. However, everytime I bother to even look at this forum, all I see is woe is me, woe is the troub, we are teh ubah sucketh, sony has [Edit] upon us as a class, we are neglected. We are so neglected, ok I get it, half this forum is about how much we as troubs suck as a class, and how hard it is to be even remotely desirable as a class.
    Ok...I give on the last one, it is hard to be desired as a class, having been turned down because they wanted "someone a little more DPS oriented", when all they had to do is ask and I would have told them I do great DPS, i'm no T1, or BL on the parse, but I'm top of the line DPS and know how to buff/debuff/etc. However, this, I feel, is primarily due to the fact that we have so many people who play troubs, who SAY we suck, and that idea has permeated the playerbase.
    So...I pose a question, skyshrine is here, various new posts still have all the same QQ doomsday for troubs, why is it I am better of using a merc to molo contested SS for faction then I am in a group where I end up tanking most of the time anyways, I put up Alin's Serene Serenade <43.8% reduced hate gain + 10% from adorns; capping me out just over -50% hate> and I rip aggro off various tanks. I pull average 100K dps in a standard group, plenty enough for contested, and any of the SS instances.
    I don't even remember if I actually put a question in there...either way, the point is, if you can't play the class, you need to rethink HOW you play it, reforge your gear, redo adorns, and rethink your prestige and cast order and probably respec your AA.
    Troubadour's are NOT broken, much akin to defilers . Its not the class, its what is commonly referred to as a PEBKAC.
    Sure, we have useless abilities like Breathtaking Bellow...and...Bria's Inspiring Ballad <59 regen a tik in combat at 92??? REALLY???> But every class has those, atleast dirges are just a SOL on Bria's, and their only blue AoE is a blue version of breathtaking bellow, and just as useless; atleast OUR blue aoe is a pretty good DPS, and has a short cast/reuse.
    Stop looking at what you can't do and how that makes the class broken, instead, look at what you can do to increase the potential of your play with the class, there are a few troubs out there who do what is often considered "Phenomenal" play for a troubadour, not because the class sucks, but because they have a better understanding of how to make it work.
    I LOVE my troubadour, my new favorite, all others have fallen to the wayside because of how much I enjoy the class, and theres some really big reasons behind it.
    1~unlike other classes that are so over simplified, it takes some actual thought and work to play a troub effectively, you can't just throw alot of CC/MA adorns on like most meelee, or alot potency/cast speed adorns like most casters, you have to rethink every stat.
    2~theres no such thing as a meelee troub, or a caster troub for that matter. We are ALL hybrid, and use a variety of meelee and spell based atttacks, supplemented with our auto attack; again, this makes it so much more interesting then most other classes.
    3~so...how many other classes can mezz an add while they take care of the trash they're killing, while charming one, to help with DPS, and not fold and splat the moment they get hit? Chanters can do the mez/charm thing, but they fold fast when they get hit, if your playing your class well, a troub can take the hits and survive.

    Now, before the flames start, I'm not saying I'm the best, far from it, I know atleast one troub who is far better then me, Fairin on AB, much better troub then I am, but watch him play a little bit, and you'll understand just how much MORE this class has to offer then what this forum is giving us credit for. We have the potential to be really awesome, but it takes more work then trying to faceroll your keyboard.
    [Edited for language.]
  2. ARCHIVED-Puck Guest

    Well said. Its a breath of fresh air on a forum of total emo.

    I agree with most of what you say. I think the problem a lot of people on here have is a group (or 3) turn them down. Most players these days go all ADHD and think "I got turned down! This class sucks." Not saying Troub doesnt have problems, but we as humans tend to magnify problems when things dont go our way. Instant gratification, and when we dont get it, something sucks and the devs need to fix it. That and players want to do everything evn if the class isnt designed to.
    I also agree about the "fun" factor of Troub. It's what you make it. Rumors about Troubs sucking will happen. Move past it. Quit dwelling on the negative and look at the positive. Like a "bard" should be, we are a "jack of all trades, master of none", a support class that can dps, and that is really what it is. Its good to see someone not being emo about this class. I love it even with the negatives.
  3. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    I have five lvl 90+, Skyshrine or better equipped, toons (at least one of each class) and, though not my oldest, my 92 Troub is my main and the only one I regularly raid with even though he's short of 320 AA, has no uber adorns and is modestly equipped in Skyshrine and some raid gear.
    Just last night my Troub raided with my guild in HOL and Vuul. I consistently parsed in the middle of the raid and frequently outparsed the Ranger, even though I had UT on him (it's probable that I was better equipped and more experienced).
    My point is that I play for fun and what could be more fun than making a respectable contribution to the raid's success with little stress and without just being a tagalong buffbot. No one expects a Troub to be a top DPSer. Just do your job and pull your weight.
    Your job is to help others look good on the parse. Skip a CA every now and then to keep PotM up, rotate JCap, debuff the mobs, etc.
    Want to dramatically increase your DPS while supporting? NEVER use melee autoattack. Use ranged autoattack instead. Every one of my CA macros ends with the Command /auto 2 . I position myself in the sweet spot where I'm in melee range, beside or behind the mob, but far enough to also be at bow range. Your ranged autoattack does much more DPS than your melee autoattack.
  4. ARCHIVED-Fairin Guest

    meh, its your job to top the parse. imho > : ) (just remember on one cares how much dps you actually did but how much your parse shows you personally did, so what if i parse 500k+ on raids if they only see 300k... then i only did 300k...)

    the bow thing, im working on extensive testing, if i can just nudge over the 300k mark i'd be happier

    if a tank cant hold off you , they dont diserve it anyway. besides you'd prolly tank it better (and for that matter help me /bug mobs that 100% ignore scout avoidance. they ARE fixing it if we report it) notice how much easier it is to tank in skyshrine? your welcome ! and if you bugged it too! great job!
  5. ARCHIVED-Pattywak Guest

    Korus@Crushbone wrote:
    This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If you have equal gear in those slots, Bards' melee autoattack is a lot better. The reason Rangers can do this is the improvements to ranged autoattack they can get though AAs and where they need to stand. There's no point in doing this for any other scout except if your melee weapons are horribly under geared like yours are.
  6. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    Ferk@Butcherblock wrote:
  7. ARCHIVED-alaplayer Guest

    Korus@Crushbone wrote:
    When will it ever end?
    You can not use this garbage as an excuse any longer, there is almost 0 gear seperation now and in more places than not the gear speration is backwards where the gear from the heroic and solo instances are better.
  8. ARCHIVED-lisemanta Guest

    Going back to the op's original point. I agree with most of what you said. I have been playing my troubador as my main since 2010. I am by far not among the best, but I don't suck.
    Currently in my raid force I am the only troubador and in raids I can parse on average 120k-130k sometimes more I have done 200k+ More importanly my group is generally topping parse (after the Ranger and Assassin) When I am absent for one night or even late as soon as I log in there are many in the raid who are grateful and make sure I know.
    As for groups the only time I have had issues getting into groups is when I'm told "We already have a troub" I have never been told we want more dps.
    I have 3 level 92's and the troubador is my favorite and my best. I may never top the parse but to me it's fun to see members of my group on top in raids or if I'm in a group seeing the damage increase from my efforts.
  9. ARCHIVED-Pattywak Guest

    Korus@Crushbone wrote:
    If you can run the Skyshrine instances and contested then you can get the majority of the gear I'm wearring (you clearly seem to be able to do that since you're wearring the access quest shoulders). Yes I'm playing more often than some, but only a few pieces of my gear are from EM raids or HM instances. My gear is from instances while yours seem to be (with the exception of the shoulders from the access) quested out of Withering Lands or last expansion raids. The only things that I'm wearing that are out of anyhting higher then UD are my weapons (one EM raid, one HM instance), my neck piece (EM raid), and one of my charms (HM instance). Other than that, a casual player who can get into a group doing any instance can pretty much gear out like I have. Sure, my weapons being high than standard instance weapons make them nice, but even before I got them I was doing more damage with 4sec last expansion EM raid weapons than with my access quest bow I'm still using.
  10. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    Ferk@Butcherblock wrote:
  11. ARCHIVED-Fairin Guest

    be sure to check the ratio of your weapons especally bows, the reason the bow does more "dps" than the melee weapons is you dont interrupt your bowshot as much as the super quick melee attacks while trying to chain your painfull lamentations.

    however after fully testing the range spec and useing only my bow i find its playstyle fits a little better while doing more dps since i dont have to run up and club mobs in the face with ca's and whatnot, however to keep my sanity i have to use the ammo conv adorns which will net a 10% cb / pot loss for 100% adorns

    oh useing the bow lets me use a shield. which lets me tank better while still maintaining aggro.. you should see my tank set i made up just for giggles .. >:)
  12. ARCHIVED-bellemort Guest

    Gots ta be honest here, watching the replies here since my original post, its good to see there are others who agree that the troub is in a good place. It ain't easy, but its fun, and worth it. And, having seen fairin play on multiple occassions...I take most of what he says about troubs as pretty much gospel.
    And you other 2 need to stop bickering...take your play style and enjoy it...and leave other to theirs...if your having fun, your doin something right, if your not having fun, your doin it wrong...
  13. ARCHIVED-Jeepned2 Guest

    Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    Ok, I'm not one of the one's who is willing to agree with you. I don't think the troub is in a good place, but I have one thing on you that you don't have, history with the class. I've played mine for five years and have seen the good days with the troub and I've seen the really bad days for the troub. Right now from what I've seen over the years we are about in the middle. The difference in opinion might come from the fact that I raid and you apparently don't. (you wouldn't have brought up mezzing and charming if you raided since they don't work in raid zones, along with several others.) There are a huge amount of problems with the troub that Sony will never address, I know that, so does every other troub out there who played for very long. I guess one of the biggest complaints is how far our brethern dirge has left us behind in the DPS abilities. That and having a large amount of spells that are useless in a raid environment. What should be of biggest concern is the lack of our spells keeping up with the times. Our mana regen (Bria's) has stayed the same for a long time now, yet mana pools of all classes have dramatically increased. It used to be that a 92 mana increase per tick was great back when a Wizard would have 10-15K mana. Now they have 45-55K mana and that 92 per tick mana regen, well it doesn't mean much anymore. The same goes with all of our buffs, they simply haven't been keeping up with the huge increases for everyone in.... well every stat. Basically we are being left behind slowly at each new expansion. Thank goodness for Jester's Cap and PoTM, or there probably wouldn't be a place for us in raid guilds. Will they be fixed any time soon? Probably not, so if you're unhappy with playing a Troub now, you probably going to be unhappy for a long time to come. We are not a large enough community, we don't whine loud enough or often enough to get Sony to take our problems seriously. That's just not who most of us are. One day people will simply start looking around and say "where are all the troubs at?" not realizing many will have quit playing thier troubs due to the frustration and have retired thier troubs to play a different class. That's what happened to the Coercers three years ago, they just stopped playing them until Sony finally fixed them.
    Now with all that said, I'll still keep playing my Troub for one main reason. Warts and all, I like playing the class. It's a thinkers class if it's to be played to it's fullest ability.
  14. ARCHIVED-Fairin Guest

    just a tiny note. i destroy our dirges on the parse, im usually 3th or 5th in a generally equally geared environment (personal DPS) but Raidwide dps nothing touches a Troub, if you like, go ahead and look me up on eqwire. copy the spec and adorns. step into full ranged, only use combat arts dureing your VC i did, not looking back anymore (myth ranged is really. a must)

    with the myth pouch (still.. trying for that bow) my average auto attack is around 800 to 1 million damage (single target) every 3.6 seconds, the hardest ive hit for with just a string of auto attack hits was 1.6 million (1 main 2 flurry 6 MA's 4 aoe's) with weaponmastery up from our wonderful monk tank with the 125k per hit + our various procs.

    it bothers me to see other troubs flailing and people ragging on them for low dps when trying to understand the mechanics of, possibly the most complicated class is rather astounding - i still get turned down for groups with the quote " we already have a bard we need a DPS" regardless if i pull 250k or not.

    and just to show what i mean. i'll even post my formulas

    first unreforge all your armor, now step one. increase your spell reuse to equal 100% if you had jcap on (ex i have 11% ability reuse, jcap puts me at 61% i need 39% spell reuse to "hard cap"
    step 2 aquire 32% spellcasting speed without jcap or upbeat tempo
    step 3 aquire a minium of 20% accuracy
    step 4 try your very -very- best not to reforge dps mod or haste to attain steps 1 2 and 3
    step 5, feel free to straight up copy my spec, send me a tell asking me questions of "why did you! or didnt you pick this!"
    step 6, make macros, i personally use a "melee" macro with my combat arts, a "casting" macro with perfect shrill mana tap and dodge and cover, an "aoe" spell macro with painfull lamentations and thunderous overture, a "Stun" macro with shield bash cheapshot and bellow (this button gets replaced with the targeting macro on raids due to obvious worthlessness on epic mobs)
    step 7 - Ammo conversation adorns are a PERSONAL choice. i simply hate.. spending my time making shurikens (and i would cut myself for spending 30pp for a stack on the broker! jesus christ!) if it adds up to 100 then you stop useing ammo (doesnt work while mentored . just beware)
    8 - going full ranged lets you use a shield. which generally have better stats so when you become like me. and are the MA of your raid, and sometimes rip adds. you survive =) - which did actually save the raid (and veil of sound was down at the time mind you. combat log showed the blocked multi attack that would have killed me, cause it killed the OT >:)
    9 Troubadors are not for everyone. going full ranged isnt for everyone. i reccomend it because in general it increased my overall dps and happiness with the class. now i can hang back and hit deadly dance for my casters (and still out parse most of them) and NOT have to yell at my warlock to get closer to me for 20% dmg buff cause i have to melee the boss!
    10 - that about covers it. you want to increase your potency over critbonus (raidwide dps IS your focus, potency increases that) Critbonus only increases your personal dps, and yeah i do care about my personal parse. but knowing !@#$ well the warlock parseing 500k only parses 200k without you, and thats one of 23 other people.
    i hope i didnt come off as an ___.like some others i dont post this in the intent to troll. but help take it however you like. and hope one day one of you buggers can show me how to dps better

    and if you pick on my mending adorns i -will- say ni to you ! i know !@#$ well 12% potency or critbonus is more damage than self healing. but i really . really like soloing convent district. and i dont mean the solo zone... =(>.-.<)=
  15. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    I'm pleased to see that a highly experienced raid Troub has pioneered the path I have intuitively decided to follow and been successful with it.
    My Troub is relatively new to raiding and is usually the only Troub in the raid force. Naturally, I'm permanently assigned to the mage group and I am almost always the only melee class in the group. Since I usually have Illusory Arm and Arms of Imagination on me, I feel obligated to swing my weapons occasionally but I am also of the opinion that full ranged is the best choice for a troub.
    My parse is still on the low side since I'm new at raiding and don't often beat the other scouts in the raid on the roll for gear. I raid 3 times/week and, on average, win a good piece once a week. Adorns are expensive so I don't waste plat adorning gear until that slot has the gear I'll be sticking with for awhile. Reforging is less expensive so I do that every time I get any replacement piece.
    You seem to favor shurikens. I confess I've never looked at thrown weapons but I've noticed that pouches with good stats drop often. I've always used a bow. I have a modestly good one and will upgrade it the next time I get a group together to kill Olivas for the quest bow :) I use Titanium Broadheads rather than field points. They're cheaper and I prefer the + damage to the extra range.
    I'd be interested in knowing what your raid cast order looks like and which CA/Spells you don't waste a hotbar slot on :)
  16. ARCHIVED-Fairin Guest

    @jetjockpjb

    i only use the myth pouch cause i havent gotten the myth bow yet... *stares at soe*

    cast order?, you have a 3 hit combo, keep it on cooldown. Painfull lamentations-perfectshrill-painfull lamentations
    inbetween casts of this use thunderous overture (if close obviously) singing shot(yeah i broke it back out just to have another attack in the rotation) mana tap and the various debuffs with 100% spellreuse+ability reuse painfull takes 5.5 seconds to refresh, and perfect takes 5 seconds to refresh and with the 1.25 casting time and 0.5 casting times it leaves you with 2 casts of something else inbetween combo hits - debuffs - other lesser dps spells, -jcap ect have fun timeing it all perfectly

    i always cap myself and who ever pays me the most for it (as for who benefits the most from jcap, my offical list is - this - Dirges - Brigands - Assassins - Swashbucklers - whoeverelse, to bluntly break it down. bards > scouts > fighters > mages > healers dont benefit from it anymore
    also the shurikens, besides having to use a pouch and not my bow that wont drop for me. you need 33% accuracy to hit every time, with the +20% from shuriken it means i dont have to waste reforging for accuracy to never miss since i sit at 11% (and 2% off cap bleh, we have a guard for 5% more rw, always)
    i only hit combat arts dureing my own VC, since i can chain them back to back for more attacks for more vc hits, i dont spec for them either which frees up a ton of points.

    also im always in the caster group and the healer is generically the only one that changes, i dont need illy buffs as i sit at 90% melee aoe and enough MA to hit 600 with the zerker rw buff (or my own procs . doesnt matter, i dont like to waste buffs) with my hm red slot charm i sit at 300 haste (for flurry and potency reasons) and 200 dps mod (which i didnt ,really, notice a major difference between 200 and 500 dps mod ( i have it on record, 500dpsmod = 117k top hit, 60.8k average, and 200 dps mod was 107k top hit and 60.6k average hit) on the same boss, same group setup (raid)

    aside from this Jet, get your spell reuse to match your abilityreuse +jcap to equal 100% otherwise your parse will be cut in half- time spent not dpsing is time wasted. if you dont wanna goto the loony bin i suggest ammo conv adorns, the 10 and 15 ammo conv adorns are just that in percents , 10 and 15% chance of not useing an arrow/shuriken, getting 100 means you dont use ammo, ever, i really love that shuiken...really..

    and as a final addition, you'll never personally out parse an assassin, or swash. as your primary form of dps doesnt add to "your" personal parse. but everyone elses. just know you do significantly more dps than what is shown. if you want to look it upon act just look at dissonant note. jesters ruse (on your jcap target) and your perfection of maestro on the entire raid's dps, thats your dps your not getting credit for, but everyone else is.

    sounds petty but a coercer makes people do damage for their personal parse. why cant ours?. well if they showed my 600k+ dps trashing everyone on the personal parse. i'd get nerfed unlike beastlords...
  17. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    Fairin wrote:
  18. ARCHIVED-Fairin Guest

    the saddest thing is i raised my woodworking to make arrows. then decided i'd rather not spend 3 hours a day making my 32 slot quiver full of arrows.. every day..

    least i didnt have to pay 1pp for my shuriken . man it sees so muuuch use =D
    oh if your accuracy is 21% now. and your useing the -10% arrows.. it ends up being 11% =) the more you know!


    a missed auto attack doesnt multi attack, or flurry. and obviously has a tremendous effect on your dps

    do check out my spec jet if you havent already funtimes not bothering with melee ca's "aa's"
  19. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    Fairin wrote:
  20. ARCHIVED-jetjockpjb Guest

    Had a look at your setup yesterday, Fairin. The major differences I see are all in the Bard tree and are accounted for in playstyle preferences. I didn't spec for the poison proc because I prefer using the points in Bard song enhancements. That may change if the whim strikes me :)
    My Troub is very similarly equipped. Your jewelry is better over all but the major difference is that you are way ahead of me in applying adorns. Adorns are expensive and I'm poor and insufficiently motivated (translation=lazy) to acquire plat :)