SKs need some LOVE too!

hi guys!
unfortunately I missed the class-improvement thread when it was here, so here's my thoughts about what SKs need:

SKs usually have a 1-hander and a shield, thus should excel in blocking. Why is it that monks with 2 wooden stick or claws have equal or higher blocking, even when they have much worse gear?

compare: my SK http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_detail/1301375912068
poorly geared monk: http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_detail/2168961891814

It just doesn't make any sense, and on top the crappy geared monk has massively higher avoidance.
So the "trade-off" for not wearing a shield is exactly NONE for monks vs. SKs...

On top of that, they of course have much higher DPS too, and can use all their skills while moving, while the SK has to sit like a lame duck for 90% of his skills!

The monk should have FAR less blocking, higher Avoidance, and EQUAL DPS to even it out. Seriously, you shouldn't deal more damage with wooden sticks and claws than with Longsword and Shield that you could use to bash your enemies with...

* SKs need to get casting while moving for ALL ABILITIES, not just 2 or 3. Especially "Unholy Blessing" (self-buff before pulls) is a major annoyance, because the SK has to stop to cast this spell on every pull. I often don't even bother casting it at all anymore, because it just annoys the group and the tank, and has a way to high casting time anyway.

...and on top of all these advantages the monk has, he also has some nice Utility as a sugar coating, like group-FD, whereas the SK pretty much has zero.

I don't want Monks to get nerfed, since I got one myself, although she's only 80 something right now, but everybody knows that 90+% of raids will take a monk any day over an SK.

Finally, I would welcome it if you REMOVE ALL +HATE adornments. It's just annoying to have to adorn 50-70% hate or reforge for more hate, esp. if you're also doing Battlegrounds where these Adorns are 100% useless, and you would rather have something in there that makes more sense. Taunts should just work without Adorns, esp. if you also already put lots of AA into them...

PS. the EQ2U stats aren't up to date. seems to have stopped updating a few days back.

except the tank archetypes are organized loosely as follows.

Brawlers
Pro: High-dps, High Avoidance
Con: Can't take hits
Crusaders
Pro: Cast poweful spells and heal themselves + permanent DI's (Until Triggered) also some of the best AE-Aggro Gain
Con: Can't cast many spells while moving
Warriors
Pro: Depending on the class either the best defense or best AE-Aggro
Con: Usually have lower dps than Crusaders or Brawlers, Die from their own DI without AA/Berserk

Both Warriors and Crusaders have lower block than Brawlers because we take hits better. If they were to make SK's block better than by virtue of archetype balance Warriors and Paladins would also need a block buff. There are many effects as a Warrior I must cast pre-pull it's part of tanking.

+Hate is actually required to be good in PvE as a tank you should have 100% with a Dirge and Coercer, just get 2 sets of gear.
"Taunts should just work without Adorns, esp. if you also already put lots of AA into them" Then go play Rift/SWToR. I hate to sound like a negative Nancy but you are required to balance AA/Adorns/Skill Rotations and the like to be effective in this game. You can't just waltz in with AA alone and expect to win, especially on Raid bosses who memwipe/shuffle.

I know "realistically" your argument is valid. Monks though with those sticks are probably using years of research into combat to avoid it while SK's are just putting up a shield, an enemy can easily strike around a shield if you know combat. Just remember that monks/bruisers when they are hit take about 15-20% more physical damage because of their Mitigation being lower.

Both Crusaders are already extremely powerful. If an SK could cast while moving they would most likely top every other tank in DPS every fight.

lol
seriously, it's hard enough to get good gear for 1 toon, not even talking about all the alts, and u suggest I get 2 sets. you're funny. I esp. despise +HATE Adorns or Reforges, because they're useless in PVP to me, and I generally dislike the idea to have to adorn hate-mods. Didn't miss them in Lotro, and please don't say Lotro is a kids game or something.

they have lower DPS, lower Avoidance, zero Utilty, can't dps while moving, and most Raids won't even take them if they can get a monk... Everybody knows that.

Monks are more needed, true, but it wouldn´t change a thing if crusaders could cast while moving.... we do need one or two more snaps.... or shorter cd on the current ones.... the ability to bind a mob on a tank is while fighting a memshuffle mob needed... thats one reason why crusys aren´t that much needed. without shuffeling, any tank can stand and amends still rocks ^^
oh, at least paladin got some nice raidwide buffs, which do help (not needed that much, but nice to have).
DPS wise, can´t complain on paladin side if it goes down on ae encounter, thought sk would punch more then paladin, so sk should be finde, if gear and playstyle is adepted.

I cannot speak from the side of raiding as I haven't cared to do it in a long time. Lower DPS on a single target yes, they are after all an AOE class. I am not sure what you would consider utility, it is not like Brawlers bring all that much to the table. :Last time I heard Paladins were the big man on the block for raid tanking. But I don't really pay attention to that stuff.

I can tell you one thing from a PVP perspective, being able to cast while moving would cause WAY too much grief.

it would mainly be less annoying to the SK, not a big increase in damage. AT LEAST "unholy blessing" (self-buff) should be castable on the move, and the red skills. the blue AOE stuff can stay as it is - only cast-able when standing still.

I agree. You simply need hate snaps that work for. eg. Bastion/Harrow's End Raid, or you're not a Tank.

I only have two toons I seriously play.........Assassin and Guardian.........and from both their perspectives I can say tanks across the board are more 'balanced' than I have ever seen. Assassin has been in MT groups with all the fighter types and my guardian has been MT to Crusader/Brawler OT and OT to Crusader/Brawler MT. The only fighter class that I can say seems to be behind the rest in terms of 'tanking' would be Zerker but not by much.

I agree SKs need cast on the run for all abilities and tank gear needs to include more tank stats to make up for lack of flurry and MA.

I don't want to get too far into the brawler vs crusader debate but the reason (at least in theory) that monks have higher avoid is because they have less mitigation, they wear lighter more flexible armor so they can avoid hits. Brawler's block used to be deflection but it was simplified at some point, the stat name is not literal. Also where monks get group fd, SKs get evac.

if you count the things together, SKs get the short end of the stick:
Monks:
+DPS, +Avoidance, equal blocking, lower mitigation
SK:
-DPS, -Avoidance, equal blocking, higher mitigation

so you see, the mitigation issue is already dealt with because of the Avoidance. There's no Reason they get higher DPS as well (even in AOE fights!).

I am sorry to say this, but if your SK is getting out parsed by an equally geared and stanced Monk on Aoe fights then you are probably doing something wrong.

Yeah, from what I have seen .......all things being equal (gear, buffs, 'skill' etc) on AE fights SKs win easy.

sk's do too much damage in reckless to get any tanking boost at all.

it's sad but that's the entire reason why, even if you don't play in reckless.

fix the ability and then crusaders can get some love in other areas.

ps.
monk in reckless can parse stupid numbers via dragonfire and sure the sk should outparse them but depending on the group make up a monk can overtake an sk..

give an SK -inqui,troub,illy,dirge,warden and watch the T1 dps roll lol

when monks can do all their fancy attacks while running backwards and jumping through hoops, SKs should very well be able to utter a few words to cast a spell on the move as well. I'd be happy if they'd at least change all the red (single target) stuff, after all a fighter is supposed to be mobile, esp. in PVP.

On average Plate tanks take as much if not slightly more damage than brawlers

30% DR on basically all flurries and multi attacks
360* avoidance is very significant on higher punching adds.
Disarming a monk does not reduce their avoidance considerably
With mitigation buffs brawlers are not that far behind plate tanks there is at most 5-10% difference

Against single target mobs brawlers will outparse a crusader
against multi mobs crusaders will outparse brawlers but not by as much as you think

I am not including recklessness in this


the *only* thing both crusader's need (pallys more than SKs) is snaps that work.

Over half of your abilities CAN be cast while moving. Including all but 2 Blue AEs I believe.

Just going to point out.. you realize you linked a bruiser? and not a monk?

thanks, I didn't notice that, it's an avoidance tank anyway too.