Exactly. Hence all of the misinformation regarding crusaders in this thread. Even after having it pointed out several times that this change is not game-breaking, people are going all "chicken little" out of ignorance of the crusader classes. For example, the person posting that Paladins being able to heal on the move would make them overpowered. Ummm...we've always been able to cast them on the run. Same with spell-casting on the run, which will affect three--that's right, only three--of our single target spells. But again, I blame tank imbalance and the priority given to certain classes in this role over the previous expansions for this, since most sane people were not formerly rolling crusaders to tank.
Yep, I do however think a spell-range reduction MAY be in order, not is required. I think I mentioned once before that really we should wait to see how this change effects things. Xelgad already said this was going to happen in this very thread, so most of this worrying is moot. Wait for the change, see how it effects tank balance, then make suggestions. For the love of Bristlebane though do not just start SK-OP threads, crying without suggestions is pointless. If you have a valid reason to think SK's or Paladins for that matter are OP after this change then post it. Till then most are swatting at ghosts. My personal take is that you (crusaders) will need a spell-range reduction because like all tanks that can already cast on the move, you should have to chase down mobs like we do otherwise that is an unfair advantage. Even berserkers (Warriors can cast on the move) have to chase down their targets. I also think Paladins need an AA-Specced snap; SK's got Chaos Cloud afterall, why are Paladins jipped the 2nd AE-Snaptaunt; is Faith that big a difference? However, I think actually Faith should both reflect damage for 3 seconds as it already does, but also be a snap-taunt with a 10m range that increases position by 2 and forces the target for those 3 seconds (thus ensuring the reflect). I think that could solve the Paladin's MT-ing issue. Remember of the Cursaders Paladins are the more group-support/MT-viable (or supposed to be) tank.
So you have the benefit of 3 spells plus a ranged attacks now while other tanks don't get anything but their bows/satchels, that screams balance.
This is my point entirely. Sure its ok to give them some range but the range should be lowered to compensate the fact that those abilities are now castable on the run.
So monks having Provoking Stance that turns Reprimand, Challenge, and Silent threat into 2 position snaps with 15m ranges plus Peel that increases threat position by 4 at a 50m range AND Peel and Provoking Stance on just over 2m reuses for my terrible monk with 44% reuse says balance while Pallies dont have a ranged force target and Sks doesnt increase threat position? That's not counting Mantis Leap on a minute reuse and 30m range. Good call. Forgive me, I dont have a Bruiser, Zerk, or Guard I can hop over to and look at for their long range abilities.
I am all for crusaders getting more snaps. I would agree that is one of the areas that they could improve.
My response was simply in return to you saying that all the other tanks don't have anything to do when a mob runs away from them. Seems to me monks have plenty in terms of getting a mob back at a distance. Probably even more effectively than those silly, soon-to-be OP crusaders that will be able to run and cast with the next GU.
I can tell you now the snaps Guardians have, their range and even how often they are resisted. - Cry of the Warrior: 10m Range 2 Positions + Force Target; 80% Resisted Rate. - Sneering Assault: 5m Range, 2 Positions + Damage; Rarely Resisted. -(0 AA) Rescue: 7.5m Range, 3 Positions; Never Resisted. -(5 AA) Rescue: 7.5m Range, 8 Positions; Never Resisted. - (10 AA)Rescue: 15m Range, 8 Positions; Never Resisted Rescue Recast: 5-8 Minutes without AA. (I can't tell as my own is AA'd) - Reinforcement: 1 position per CA; Range is dependent on skill which all guardian CA's are 5m. (6 second recast). Reinforcement lasts for 13 seconds *(5 AA) Reinforcement: 1 position per CA or Taunt; Range still dependant on ranges and our Ranged Taunts are 15m *(10 AA) Reinforcement: 1 Position per CA or Taunt; 5-15m Range. Duration 18 Seconds. This means that we can only get maximum 4 ranged Snaps off during this skill (With Max AA). It can also be blocked/resisted if the CA/Taunt is. Total Threat: 4 Positions barely better than Rescue. - Recapture: Raises all fighters 1 position and lowers non-fighters 1 Position; Doesn't effect the Guardian as the primary target. *Recapture is what Guardians have to make other fighters look good. So a Guardian has only 1-2 Long Range taunts but only after investing 15-20 AA in them. Reinforcement also only lasts for 10 seconds so it really is useful for 1 time-snap backs. Our only medium range taunt is highly-resistible. We also make other tanks look better by protecting their healers, themselves from AE's and raising their hate over our own. Guardians are not the bastion's of Hate everyone thinks they are. They have unique tools that really require proper management to be good. A bad Guardian really, REALLY shows. If you want to start saying other classes are Taunt-OP then well, I would like to say Crusaders are DPS-OP by comparison... oh btw a good Zerk can OT just as well as a Crusader; the problem is they must be good, Crusaders have the easymode of OTing unless the adds memwipe a lot. Trust me, try OTing on a Guardian then complain to me that OTing as a Crusader is hard. I had to build a lot of my gear/AA into being able to do it, where Crusaders have it built-in, they just are missing a Snap or two. I also know a number of monks who say Dragonfire is OP due to Reckless/Timewarp. However if they are in Defensive... I can parse with them because I know how to play a Guardian well, I can parse 300K-600K on a Guard on a named . However I can't do it while MTing (and I do it without Reckless) . Yet I see the Monk/SK/Paladin/Bruiser/Zerker all pushing 600K+ and the Crusaders are usually 500-900K while the Monk is 600K and the Bruiser is 700K.
I really see no point to your last post about your Guardian and how good of a player you think you are. We know you play a Guard. We know Guards are defensive tanks and have defensive tools to do their job. They are very much an unsung hero type of class. But really, your huge rant there focused solely on Guards was completely out of place in this thread.
Priority was pointing out Brawlers taunts and imo making them seem more powerful than they are. He said Perhaps I overreacted. So I stepped forward and explained exactly how our abilities (Guardians). Yes in the 2nd half of my post some of my Bias against crusaders/warriors showed. I will admit that I have been bitter towards Crusaders and you can thank TSO/SF for that one, old grudges die hard sometimes. Perhaps some of it was off, but too late to retract that. So ignore the second half of the post. Yes, my post kinda ran together because there have been multiple threads regarding Reckless, tanks and Crusaders moving and they kinda of ran together. You got a cosmopolitan post rant that addressed multiple threads; my apologies.
Ok so before i continue with this i will ask you one question. If the spells for crusaders stayed interruptable would you still have an issue with the fact that they have some longer range abilities? I ask this because if you think that all of our spells should have a reduced range whether or not they are interruptable then there really is no point in continuing this discussion. Now if you think our spells (read those 3 single target spells that are 30 meter range) being able to be cast on the run warrants reduction of range but not if they remain then i shall continue. There are 4 main scenarios where this would come into play at. 1) pure ranged fight, 2) snagging a single add that gets away from us, 3) jousting, and 4) "kiting" (basically just the monkey).. 1 - Pure ranged fight. Since there is no movement we can already just cast those spells as they cycle up, so casting on the run changes nothing. 2 - Snagging add. Again for this there is no real movement as is because it is far superior to hit it with a bow. However if that does not snag it right away then we most likely have to run over and use a snap. If the dmg from a bow does not grab agro for us then casting these 3 spells while we run over to it will not have an effect either. 3 - Jousting. A typical joust would be a max of 10 seconds, usually at most a 5 second red text warning where you back out, and then the run back in (which takes less then 5 seconds). So for the sake of argument we will go with taking 10 seconds to joust out. How it is currently. Paladin in the middle of casting one of the 3 spells jousts and gets interrupted. When we are at range and stationary we just cast the 3 spells then. In that entire 10 seconds we can get all 3 spells off as with 100% cast speed and recovery speed (which is not hard to get close to in raids) it takes 1.5 seconds to cast all 3 (will round this up to 2 seconds). Judgement has a 10 sec reuse, refusal 30 second, and Legionnaires a 15 second reuse. So in the 10 second joust we can only cast all 3 spells once. How it will change. Paladin in the middle of casting one of the 3 spells jousts and does not get interrupted. We then cast the other 2 spells either while backing out or once we are at range. Now since judgement is the only one that has a 10 second reuse that would be the only possible one we could cast within the joust window. So in total we cast 1 additional judgement spell for a total of 4 spells. I fail to see how casting a spell 1 more time in a joust makes it OP. However let us look a little bit more at jousting. You can try this if you want as it is easily repeatable. Take a training dummy and stand as far back away from it as you possibly can (4 meters). Cast your longest cast time CA (you may need to remove your gear to get the cast time closer to the 0.5 seconds or higher). As soon as you hit the button to cast it back up so that you are greater than the 5 meter range (will prob end up around 7 meters away). Look at that your CA lands, even though you are greater than the 5 meters that is its range. If we tried that with our spells, guess what it would be interrupted. 4 - "Kiting" This is probably the only one you will notice it on. How it is currently. We know the range of the mob and the range of our spells. We keep bow attacks on it, casting decree and zealous smite every time it is up. If we get far enough away we stop and cast 1 or 2 of the spells, and then move on. So we are still casting them. However not whenever they are up since we have to get far enough away to be able to stop and cast. How it will change. We no longer need to stop to cast and can cast whenever they are up. This will lead to them being on the parse higher. However 1 single bow hit (well 6 because of MA) will be superior to all 3 combined in terms of dmg. So even though we can now cast them whenever they are up they will not jump our dps on this fight significantly.
I wanted to keep this a bit separate from the wall of text i just posted. Here is the list of the 3 greatest benefits that this will bring to the paladin. Of these 3, 2 of them have been needing to happen for a while, and the 3rd is really the only one that people can argue any sense of it being OP at. The casting of our heals, AoEs, and STs will not be noticeable to anyone other than the paladin really. 1 - HG cast on the run THIS has been needing to happen for years. HG is our only unique snap and is 10 meter range. However it can not be casted on the run, so as a snap it is lacking hard in that sense. All other non-crusaders snaps are castable on the run, why are crusaders hurt in this regard. 2 - Heretic's Destruction cast on the run THIS has also been needing to happen. It is a temp group buff. Why was this not castable on the run, when it should be. 3 - Cure Spell cast on the run THIS is the ONLY one that you can argue it being OP. The fact that it is such a fast reuse (2.5 seconds) with 0.5 second cast time this should not be castable on the run. Most healers and all mages cure spells can not be cast on the run. If you are going to argue any sort of game changing it will be this spell. With which i would as a paladin appreciate it castable on the run, but know that it shouldn't be really. However if they decide that it is OP then they can prob change the mechanics for this specific spell. The rest are either not significant or have been needing to happen for a while.
In PVP the ability to move and cure 3+(castigate) spells at the same time and cure a spell after that every 4 seconds on the move might break PVP a bit haha. Being able to heal everyone in a group for 5% every 5 seconds in pvp is pretty ridiculous, hell it seems kind of nuts in pve. Just putting that out there. The way most the PVE encounters are it wont make too much of a difference either imo. So in my eyes its not really changing much in PVE, but giving a clear advantage in pvp.
Castigate is not the game changer in PVP it would be Cure Spell. Assuming 100% reuse speed (which most geared paladins are near). Castigate is at a 90 second reuse. However Zealous Smite is on a 30 second reuse and cures just as much as Castigate does. ZS is already able to be cast on the move, so ZS >> Castigate. However Cure Spell is on a 2.5 second reuse and cures 1 of each type excluding trauma. This is what would be broken in PVP. A little correction the group heal is 7.5 - 10% heal, and 4.5 second reuse in PVP. Would help but i doubt it would be game changing.
Castigate is massive in PVP(IMO it has the potentials to turn the tables), being able to retreat and cast it on top of smite and cure spells is absolutely ridiculous on the move, you can basically retreat when they burn temps cure yourself and get back to whooping them in fashion if something like this gets implemented. I know I will. I also know that since I can group heal on the move I will let my pvp groups know about it so they will move with me and stay in range. trust me it will help alot. Adding to this to a rotation while in movement and using keybindings will make a player that clicks look silly. It will make crusaders survive alot more when they are being focus burned. Its game changing in the sense of the clutch, 7-10% can make a difference, knowing that you can use it while on the move every 5 seconds means it can basically be added to a rotation whenever convenient to respond to a group effort. I might be over thinking the situation, but I guess we will see.
this thread and argument is pointless.. the dev already said this change was coming and it's a good change. range for a dps class is an issue since they can do damage with out taking as much damage but range for a tank is negligible. i mean it's like no one here has ever tanked a mob in this game ever.. the highest aggression mechanic in this game is proximity. any range crusaders get from this fix will be meaningless until they are right next to the mob. unless it's a taunt lock or hate jump equivalent to the mem shuffle that mob is not going to move an inch towards the crusader until the crusader is in melee range.
now.. in pvp this change will be stupid broken unless they rebalance pvp again. i asked for all casters to be able to cast while moving pre-nerf to my assassin(hardest hit) and other melee classes (sans ranger) but with the last nerf if they open up cast while moving it will be a slaughter. i mean you see what bards can do with their weak spells just because they can continuously kite all damage.
