Since Rangers are being locked to T7 DPS why aren't Assassins?

Ok im completely confused. I dont play a ranger, but i understand them pretty well. Aerliak posted that in raids rangers are just behind assasins/wizards and on par with swashies. I am trying to figure out the advantage of a ranger then. If i can pick up an assasin or wizard that can out dps a ranger, or a swash that can match his DPS + bring a ton of debuffs as well, then why would anyone consider a ranger for a raid? Plus the fact it costs rangers plat to DPS, if i do recall its free for wizards/assasins/swash.
My second problem is the large number of people that never even see a raid. Why are they being effected by the same things raid rangers are? On top of all that, if it truely is "Raid" DPS that Aerliak is trying to balance, then why are the none raid bows getting a big DPS nerf, while the top 4 bow's that only raiders can get are staying the same?
Where is the logic? What am i missing?

Aeralik,
Let's see some data please.
I'd really like to know what bow/gear you are using to even remotely consider Ranger DPS ok.
My fiancee plays a Ranger and she is pretty competetive when it comes to this stuff so we are always trying to push her dps as high as we can get it. In the process of doing this I have become quite familiar with the Ranger class. From CA order to timing auto attacks to what gear she should be using and why and to the utterly acinine arrow mechanics. All I can say about the RoK expansion is that it has been pretty unfufilling for her. I guess I should preface this by saying that we are not in a hardcore raiding guild, but I'm pretty sure we aren't far from a decent representation of your general EQ2 player. We raid on the weekends and have really just started T8 raid content. However, I can only imagine that her issues will only get worse as our raidforce starts to get more and more fabled.
She is equipped in pretty much all the best stuff she can have in RoK before raid gear and using her Fabled Epic bow with AD3s and a few Masters and guess what... her dps has gone up by a MUCH smaller margin than pretty much every other scout and mage in our guild at 80 who dont even have any masters at all. Last T8 raid we were on, the Swashie outdpsed her on the zonewide (albeit by a small margin but it was still higher). They both had a Troub and Illusionist in group and had identical buffs on them. Again, both are using the best non raid gear possible. Now this is just one instance ive cited here but I see it on a nightly basis. She really struggles to keep her dps up and she is getting fairly frustrated. Not to mention the disgusting amount of money we pour into her arrows at 4-6s each.
Your posts and sometimes scathing remarks are an absolute insult to this community and then you wonder why you are getting flamed by pretty much 99% of the people that post here. Rangers don't have utitlity. To argue otherwise is absurd. To give them 1 new buff and argue oherwise is also absurd. They show up in groups and raids to do damage. Period, end of story. Whats the saying? "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining?"
Perhaps it's bad business on SOEs part to have an Assassin in charge of Ranger development. It doesn't matter how hard you are trying to not be biased, its built into human nature in situations where there is a conflict of interest. And why are you even contemplating messing with bow auto attack dmg?? She usually tracks between 40-50% of her damage being AA and I'm sorry thats either not far off or right on par with a lot of other classes.
At any rate, something really needs to give here. Whenever I'm playing I have a Ranger with me and I know that what I see on a nighly basis does NOT jive with a single thing you are saying and im fairly certain these nerfs (not fixes, nerfs) will be the last straw for my girl. She's kept her blinders on and stayed away from forums since she started playing but this is just rediculous now. Seeing her class watered down to a lower tier of DPS and then have the dev basically say the things that you have is more frustrating than you can ever imagine.
-Vaydn - 80 Mystic

Drocca@Venekor wrote:

You are not missing anything, and there simply is no logic behind that all
The only logic maybe is : Ranger can kite -> kiting is BAD ->>> NERF Rangers
And so, since all CAs already have been nerfed to be unusable on the run, the next thing is autoattack. After that the next will maybe that poisons/procs don't trigger anymore if the arow was shot on the run. And the last step is : No autoattack while on the run, and the recast timer will be reset to full 9 seconds after you stopped from running.
I think that is the only BIG VISION they have for rangers.

Shalla@Valor wrote:

When I read this, in my mind it sounded like...
Rangers can kite >> Kiting is bad >> Very, very bad >> Nerf Rangers, mmm-kay

Aeralik wrote:

Aeralik,
Were telling you your data is wrong for the parsing over and over PLEASE HELP

Aeralik wrote:

This is the section I would like to highlight, Aeralik. I don't raid so I don't know where we are in raids. BUT the most important thing I see here is that you "never said that's how it should be." If this is NOT how it should be you need to fix it instead of constantly telling us that we are "fine."

Aeralik,
I am sure you are putting some effort into some type of class balance. However, the frustration you are seeing from the community is because it appears to us that your decisions are based on flawed data.
You have the entire Ranger community ACROSS SERVERS - all agreeing that we are significantly dps penalized since the introduction of RoK.
You have the entire Ranger community ACROSS SERVERS - parsing and offering data points indicating these disparities.
You have the entire Ranger community ACROSS SERVERS and other DPS classes, Wizzies, Swashy's, Assassin's, Warlocks, Brig's etc... all SUPPORTING the Ranger appeal for fairness - they all realise our DPS compared to our Utility is totally flawed.
You - yourself commented that Rangers are below Wizzies and Assassins's DPS, and equal to Swashy DPS. These classes bring significantly more raid and group utility than a Ranger.
None of these classes have the difficulty in obtaining the gear we need to acheive this position on the parse
None of these classes have to pay significant amounts of plat to acheive these numbers
NONE OF THESE CLASSES HAVE DIFFICULTY IN OBTAINING A RAID SPOT - Except for Rangers !!!
Even the proposed Utility offering in LU44 provides additional disparity - it further benefits the melee classes we are compared to i.e. It will add more dps to the classes that are already ahead of us, and we are measured against.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - Put your current data to one side, dude you're a coder...you know the data and statistics can be flawed, especially when complex systems are involved. I mean this isn't some huge conspiracy across servers and classes to make the Ranger the uber toon !!! just a buncha people passionate about the game and class that truly think they are getting shafted again. Combine this with the support you have seen from other classes - all agreeing with our analysis. Doesn't this make you stop and think.
From my perspective LU44 the way it stands will make me stop playing my Ranger, he is an alt - currently RSB equiped. LU44 will nerf my dps with this bow, and I stand no chance of getting a T8 fabled raid bow...my toon as effectively gone backwards dps wise, even after spending 220 plat less than 6 weeks ago...this plat took me 6 months to accumulate. I suppose this LU not only will make or break the Ranger, it will also decide if I continue to pay for my 2 accounts.
regards
Bara

#1 Assassin
#2 Wizard
#3 Assassin
#4 Necro

#7 Ranger....

This is an extreme parse from one of the top guilds in the game and you are saying we are up there with wizzies?

Wow, been playing Meerah since the first week. 500+ days played on her.. I have never, ever considered rangers as being 'fine' if we are 'right there with the brigands', *a T2 class*. I am speechless. Next expansion we'll prolly be *fine* when we are parsing along with the rats in Freeport. Sigh.

Aeralik wrote:

I think you're misinterpreting. When people say 'T7' DPS, we're talking about the raiding tier, level 70. Essentially, as 99% of Rangers will never see a bow that's better than T7 had to offer, this is pretty much true. (Well, except for our epic. But that's only because you cheated and nerfed RSB so you could call our Fabled an upgrade.)

Mofackie wrote:

Yeah. I am trying to get into a hardcore raiding guild atm, but the guild showed me some parses and I realized that I dont stand a chance as a ranger.. Why would they take me when assassins does twice my dps? Nobody would... Their assassins do more than 10k and I dont even do half of that if I use everything I got.
Answer this one Aeralik..................................PLEASE

A 140k DPS in a 26 sec fight in Temple of Kor-sha I don't think is a good yardstick to use to show the condition of any classes DPS, while impressive. Pretty sure everyone used every 15 min ability, blessing, potion, etc. available to them to show off. How about their Zonewide?
I understand the rangers plight, but arguements using stuff like this or saying you can't get in a raid guild cause you can't parse 5k (showing you don't understand that parses like that are due to Mythicals, t7 Avatar gear, raid set-ups, and overall raid DPS inflation, something you can't achieve unless you're actually in the guild and raided for a while) is just making Aerlik look more and more right....

Now that our assasin is getting better gear this last week he has beaten me alot. Our brigand has also started beating me now to since he has gotten better gear. When I came to this guild I was told that I was very good and I have exceeded all expectations but now with the nerf incoming they are questioning wether or not to keep me around when they can get another dps class that has more utility and beat my parse. Thanks Aeralik I am losing my spot in raid and prolly guild now because you think all the other scouts and mages should be beating me on the parse. If this happens I will be petitioning you to the corporate office for wantingly seeking to destroy a customer base. I did not choose this class to be another Legolas or some other famous book ranger. I started this ranger because it was my favorite class in D&D. Put your money where your mouth is and show this data you elude to but never show. Tell the ranger community that you do not want us to be T1 dps and that you are trying to make us go extinct. That is what you are doing tbh. If you say that rangers should be on par with swash and brig then why would any ranger ever get picked up in raid? Why would anyone want us in guild? TELL US WHY!!! TELL US WHY YOU ARE DOING THIS!!!! WHY DO YOU WANT US TO BE T2 DPS(or less)!!!!

Because it's been proven, time and time again, that despite posts of parses, comments from raiders, and general discontent at least this dev doesn't give a **** (hey... if I played an assassin too and were a dev, I'd probably favor that class as well). And, for the record, right now it's not assassins and wizards neck to neck -- unless the wizard is grossly over-geared in comparison to the assassin. Assassins can pull insane dps without dying, whereas a sorcerer trying to do the same would more than likely get splattered in 2 seconds flat. Ah well... I don't give a **** any more. Just gonna wait till Age of Conan is out. D.

Mythal_EQ2 wrote:

Our Wizards routinely win the zonewide parses I don't know what kind of [I cannot control my vocabulary] wizards you play with.

Computer MAn wrote:

They routinely win, but unless you're under geared, under grouped as an Assassin you are right there next to them in the parse.

But yes, mythal's comment was really off.

OK, I was bored so decided to drop in and harrass you folks some more. Can't get into the parse argument with you since my guild doesn't have a Ranger anymore. But for now our wizzy's are out dpsing our assassin, but not by much. Mostly depending on the mob and if the Assassin is having to joust. Our Warlock? Again depends on the fight, sometimes he's no#1, sometimes down around 7-10. Umm who else? Oh..our swashy's are always up there, although seldom do they ever beat the Assassin and Wizzy's. Me? Well, not 100% sure since they only show the top 10 players on the parse. But since we run with a Temple, Inquisitor, a Defiler and a Mystic, I'm guessing I'm normally around the #20 spot. Nice place for a mage huh?

Jeepned2 wrote:

Comparing coercers with rangers would be the same as when troubs ask for wizard DPS.
But if you give away all your stuns/stifles/roots mana and hate-buffs and all other utility you have, and you pay 6-7s for every spell you cast, then you may come back here to troll some more

I don't play a ranger as my main. My ranger is lvl 45, has been for a long time & will likely stay that way for a long time more (I prefer playing my healers over my other alts).
However, I can't see 'all being right' with their set up if they, as a class with practically no utility that pays for their dps regularly comes in well behind the other 't1' dps classes who have more utlity & free damage. If they are sitting really close to other classes with a lot more utility something is definately borked.
Just an observation from an outsider.
Good luck rangers, I feel for you.

Shalla@Valor wrote:

Oops, sorry if I gave the impression that I though that as a Coercer I should have anything near a Ranger as for as DPS goes. That definitely wasn't my intention. But as a mage, I would like to out dps the furies and wardens. I have already expressed my backing to/for the Ranger's complaints. Should Rangers be T1 dps? Yes. Should Coercers be given thier own Tier...say T4.5? Probably, it would make us more unique then we are now. Oh and as far as that goes, I think we should at least be on the same tier as dirges. We are both after all nothing but buff bots anymore. I'm a raider so yes our stuns and stifles do help a little. Since the last LU I haven't yet gotten a root to land even after the swipe. And since I have been replaced in the MT group by an Assassin, I don't use my hate transfer anymore. And Dang IT! I ain't here to Troll....just to harrass.