Discussion in 'History and Lore 2' started by Emissary Vex, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. Emissary Vex Active Member

    In EverQuest II, the Shissar were presumably destroyed when Luclin shattered. However, it has been revealed that "the Shissar knew their fate"[1] and it is highly possible that they once again moved their temple. Some believe that the new location is The Void, and that the Shissar are the Shadowed Men.

    I'm not sure where this lore on Zam comes from; I presume it comes from the broken forum link.

    I would love it if the Shissar made it into EQ2. The original Everquest has already added Shissar into another expansion "The Buried Sea". Although I don't know if these are Shissar that never went to Luclin or left Luclin later; perhaps after the Emporer was killed.

    I hope the Shissar did not become the Shadow Men as the lore theorized because that doesn't even make me Shadow Men were in the original game before Luclin even. Of course without even needing to change the lore they could let us have Shissar via Chronomancy; simply let us go back in time to see them when they were still on Kunark.
  2. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    the Shadowedmen were revealed to be various races but the 'default' on was I think Jal'reath...a race similir to or the very one that Rodcet Nife is/was. As to the Shissar. I beleive that comment about knowing thier fate was them moving TO luclin, not after moving there. we know for a fact the room containing the Ages End calender was still on Norrath this whole time. we know the monoliths are on norrath and in Ethernere in some points, adn that oart oi the Chelsith stone was with Trakanon, and the bulk of it was in the Leviathen's stomach. so obviously the calendar was left behind when they escaped to Luclin.

    and even if they knew Luclin was going to go boom, there is no way for them to know how, or why. even the Rune of Sunder itself only reveals Luclin's destruction, not when, or how it was caused. and we know now it was caused by the Erudites on Norrath causing the Great Feedback. that blew up the Nexus/triggered the Dresolisk Stone and sent Odus into Ultera. and considering the extreme Xenophobia. not to mention that Translocation was completely severed before Luclin even shattered. (the reason for the spires that caused it in the first place was to reestablish translocation)

    For the shissar to have survived Luclin, either they A) memorized thier calendar and had it so accurate that they could know exact times for things they would never under any circumstance witness or B) there are Shissar still living on Norrath. and considering the obvious retcon and shoehorning they had to do to pull that off in EQ1, and the fact I think these devs are a little more competent and involved in their actual story then a 'lets bring back X race because it looks neat' vibe. (or they would have given us Vah Shir back with Beastlords) that the Shissar are dead and gone.

    Might was see some undead shissar? maybe. might we see some in other updates of Ethernere? perhaps. but I don't think the shissar race is going to be anything but shambling undead in EQ2 if they even make an appearance
  3. Emissary Vex Active Member

    Actually yes, I remember reading the lore on Shissar while they were still on Luclin; they escaped the Green Mist but they did know their race would still be wiped out some day in the future (presumably on Luclin). Hence why I brought up Chronomancy; it's the easiest way to let us have Shissar without compromising any lore. Heck; they could give us the entire Luclin expansion using Chronomancy. Although I personally would prefer to see the Shissar when they were still on Kunark.

    I also think that the Shissar would fit in nicely with where the overall story is heading with the Ethernere and dead Gods; because the Shissar Emporer had weapons that could kill Gods. It stands to say that if the Dragons or anyone else with Chronomnacy wanted that power that would be a good way to try and get it.
  4. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    not exactly. the Emperor had a singular sword that was supposedly used to kill Cazic's 'signifigant other' or an important to him Demigod from Fear. which is one reason why Cazic was royally peeved at them. I don't think they 'knew' thier race would be wiped out as much as they feared the Greenmist would find them, hence their creation of the Grey. but I wouldn't mind seeing the Shissar if they were say done in's viable and plausible to see them there. but I don't want to see them on Norrath, unless they are shambling undead things that were eaten up by the Greenmist.
  5. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Just a point of order: we're still not sure what blew up Luclin. We know via the SF story arch that the Feedback was created when the Ulterian Spire Network attempted to connect to the Luclin Nexus (since it was based on the Combine Network and failed to take this into account). It could be that this triggered the explosion both on Odus and on Luclin. Or it could be that the Luclin nexus was already destroyed and the feedback was caused by the failure to connect. Or it could of been caused by the magic that was intended to prevent teleportation from working. There are other plausable answers to account for the lore given in current day Odus.

    That and according to the Odus lore they have been missing for 100 cycles (years?), and the Shattering only happened about 50 years ago. Events still don't match up.
  6. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    Ultera doesn't work the same timewise as Norrath. there are plenty of erudites that claim they've been alive hundreds of years, even though they don't live that long. and I'm sure not everyone has magical items or nercomantic skill to keep themselves alive that long.

    we know the El'Arad intentionally 'flubbed' the creation because he wanted what happened. to shunt Odus into Ultera so Theer could use it as a stepping stone to get back to norrath. (the being he knew as the Grand Seraph) pretty much everything we have says that the 'Great Feedback' is the reason for Luclin's explosion. wether or not it blew up the Nexus, or wether the Feedback detonated the Dresolisk Stone is debatable.
  7. Emissary Vex Active Member

    There is ALLOT of conflicting lore regarding the spires and I do not think its intentional.

    Pre-release it was heavily implied that the Gods were responsible for destroying Luclin. Although I do like that they tried to get away from that because it never made sense to me that anyone would continue to worship them as "good" after they performed genocide like that.

    The conflict in lore comes from the reference of "Combine Spires". See this link.

    The spires were never constructed by the Combine. They were constructed by the "Builders"; which do this day have never been revealed. There is also lore that connects the Shissar and Combine Empire that conflicts with itself.
  8. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Yep, El'Arad's little bombshell that the spires pre-date the Combine empire. Lore-wise nothing has touched the spire's true builders since then. Who built them? Several possabilities actually.
    1) El'Arad could be wrong. I seriously doubt that, but it is vaugely possible for people like me who really want the Combine and the lost art of Geomancy to be the source of them. But I'll conceed that El'Arad is most likely correct.
    2) The Shissar were dimensional raiders who stole the planar runes the Shissar Calendar was created from the Gods. Being experts in dimensional travel they could of needed the Spire Network to get to other dimensions. However, this begs the question: why didn't they conquor all of Norrath? Also, why so many spires in Antonica but only one in Kunark?
    3) All player races can be discounted, since ships were required to discover the various continents and explorers found Combine Spires there. Until EQ2 nobody in any of the games has been able to construct a teleportation spire.
    4) Well, could of been the Rallosian Empire that build the spires. The pre-curse goblins (Akenefta...Akenaf..err...I can't remember) were powerful spell casters. They could of built the spires to help the army connect across the world. They were also savvy to planar travel as they invaided the Plane of Earth without Rallos' involvement the first time (Rallos lead the second charge). The Curse of the Rathe could explain why the Rallosians didn't use the spires to escape...because it stripped the Goblins of their arcane knowledge.
    5) Some other race lost to time, like the Jal'eth or maybe whoever is hanging out on the lost continent.
    6) Built by Luclin for her own amusement.
  9. GabenBison Active Member

    I have no problem with them shoehorning the Shissar into EQ2 as alive. Seeing how EQ2 Launch was nothing but shoehorning like "Oh hey there's Holly Windstalkers ghost! And Tundra Jacks! Oh and the Bouncers Of Oggoks! And Garanel Rucksif's ghost all the way in Antonica in a catacomb...oh"

    Yeah I do find them neat, and there is probably a faction of them that survived somehow. Anything is possible in EQ2, especially with how each important figure seems to escape death or land in a lucky situation.
  10. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    holly windstalker died. garnel is a cursed spirit. the ogres died, destroyed by the greenmist. tundra jack...dead. nothing unusual about that. they are spirits. but we know that the Greenmist eats everything it's sent to. you literally have to bury yourself into the ground to even think about escaping it. IE the only ogres that escaped the Greenmist were those fighting for Freeport, and those that were deep in the earth in Guk hunting the frogloks. the Shissar had no allies. they had no enemies they were tracking down. they pissed Cazic off by their treatment of the Iksar and for a planar raid that saw one of his demigods supposedly slain by the shissar emperor. (which is why his sword is suppsedly a 'godslaying' weapon) everything says that the only ones that escaped, did so by translocating thier entire temple to Luclin, and even then they were so terrified of the greenmist they created the Grey, a vaccum around the entire temple, and became extremely xenophobic...tot he point of liching thier dead to keep their temple's workforce intact...because they don't dare set 1 scale beyond the border of the Grey for fear of the Greenmist.

    EQ1 shoehorned them in by saying some of the Shissar made a pact or deal with the Combine to work with them in their version of Atlantis. which goes completely against the slavery enforcing, necromancy studying, proudly vicious race that they are supposed to be. Nevermind that the Combine and the Shissar, outside this handful, apparently never made any kind of contact with each other. hell the Combine didn't even know the Iksar existed apparently. as they are the only race that isn't invited into the Combine.

    so lets look at EQ2. for the Shissar to be alive in EQ2, they apparently had to have access to a calender they obviously left on Norrath when they ran screaming from the Greenmist, the ability to decipher not only that the moon was going to blow, but how, and the exact moment when...and far enough ahead of that time to know when teleportation was going to be shut off...which there is no indication on the Calandar for.

    they'd have to know of events in Shadowhaven/the Nexus...which they wouldn't go to because of their extreme xenophobia form the Greenmist eating the rest of their people, and they had no living slaves because of the same reason.

    Now I would not be surprising to see Undead Shissar. That I could buy, that they didn't survive destruction on Luclin but a few of their undead did. or the Liched raid named survived with his phylactery intact and has as of now been stuck on Luclin.

    I also wouldn't mind seeing them in Ethernere in a 'living' form.

    But unless they an come up with a pretty convincing good idea to bring live Shissar into present norrath, I don't want to see it, and I don't think they'll do it without finding such a reason first.
  11. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Time travel. All the cool kids are doing it. Did I ever mention that I *hate* time travel?
  12. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    well there is that. but we know the only ones with access to Chronomancy were the Dragons of Skyshrine...and like 1 gnome that built a time machine in the present day that we blow up because it's a gnomish toy and it invariably causes more trouble then it's worth.
  13. Cyliena Well-Known Member

    The broken link in the OP went to this thread: Unfortunately there's several broken pictures, but basically you can get the lore that was being discussed there from talking to the Book of Sunder in Nektropos Castle: Tribulation.

    After seeing the Shissar statues in Wurmbone's End, I do wonder if they're going to find a way to bring a sect of surviving Shissar into the game.
  14. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Don't forget about Miragul who did time travel without a dragon or machine (that we know of) to anchor him. Also there is the Chronomagic event...though I'm not sure if that should count since its more or less an EQ1 celebration rather than part of EQ2's storyline.
  15. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Well, Wurmbone's End is built just above the remains of Chelsith which started off as a Shissar city where they were working on the Calender. Having a few statues outside of the city isn't horribly suprising. Having the Kunark dragons move into an abandoned Shissar cavern and remodel it for their own use doesn't sound suprising either. It could be the Shissar started the trend of placing grand statues of themselves around Kunark and that the Iksar went around destroying those statues and modifying them into Iksar statues. That would explain why some Iksar statues arn't located near Iksar cities.
  16. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    what shissar statues do you see in wurmbone end? the only statues I saw were the dragonheads that you hide behind for the first named...and considering it's a dragon necropolis, that's not surprising.

    as to Miragul...yes he managed to do it, but not in the manner that would work for the Shissar being alive. he's dead as an Ethernaught..or undead, we should say. that's why he's icy cold when someone touches him, and basically what he did was project his soul through the eternal prism into the past. Lichdom lets him 'form' a body as long as it's around, and considering his choice of phylactery, he's pretty set for that.
  17. Cyliena Well-Known Member

    I posted the picture of them above. In the water/garden type area, holding a crystal.
  18. Meirril Well-Known Member

    I don't think Miragul was a lich at the point he was time traveling. Once he attempted to use the Eternal Prisim for a phylasery I think he became trapped in it. He lost interest in anything outside of the crystal, which I suspect was a sort of trap.
    When Miragul describes time travel, he says he let his soul wander in the time stream until it emerged. It doesn't sound like he was in complete control of when he traveled to.
  19. Meaghan Stormfire Well-Known Member

    Erm, the builders of the old spires was the Combine Empire.
    That is either a huge retcon or is completely wrong. The Ulteran Spires were built by the Erudites. The older spires were indeed built by the Combine Empire. That lore goes all the way back to the beginning of EverQuest. Upon arriving on Luclin, they built more there.
  20. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Yep, its a Retcon. But its also official EQ2 lore. Al'kabor declaired that the Combine Spires pre-date the Combine and should be called something else.

    To be fair, Greig's contraption to teleport back to Norrath looks completely different than the Spires. You can see the ruins of his device in Mons Lethari with a bunch of specters haunting it. Everything in the Nexus looks like the Spires.

    There isn't any evidce that the Shissar used or built the Spires. The main argument against is that Ssra Temple is far away from the Nexus, and has nothing even remotely like the Spires near it. If the Shissar made the Spires wouldn't it make sense for them to use that to get to Luclin?

    Honestly, my prime suspect for a builder of the Spire system is Luclin herself. That would explain why the Nexus is on the moon and how she controlled who could teleport there. It would also explain how teleportation was lost and regained.