Here's the 50 fight sample with DW Leafblade and RGF, along with readable screenshots and an explanation of the math, so you can see exactly each little bit of data and the calculation of the final figure. Since my posting of logs is implied to be nothing but BS and some folks can't be bothered to download them and check my figures. Session info, DW parse: Ok, calculate the number of hits. 3112+169+158+158+146+245+255+53+40=4336 GS Proc rate: 150/4336=0.03459409594095940959409594095941, or roughly 3.5% Fury Proc rate: 310/4336=0.071494464944649446494464944649446, or roughly 7.1% Session info, RGF parse: Hits: 1137+52+156+165+270+148+240+38+159=2365 Ancient Flame proc rate: 402/2365=0.16997885835095137420718816067653, or roughly 17% Fury Proc rate: 280/2365=0.11839323467230443974630021141649, or roughly 11.8% Predicted proc rate for GS Proc: 3.5% Predicted proc rate for DW Fury Proc: 7% Predicted proc rate for Ancient Flame: 15.2% Predicted proc rate for RGF Fury Proc: 12.7% That's it. Straight numbers. Straight math. If someone wants to argue I somehow edited roughly 14,500 lines of logs (which are available for anyone to download and look at) to make these numbers come out, then you can delude yourself if that will let you sleep better. Note: I erroneously calculated the proc rate for Ancient Flame prior because I had put in the wrong number for Breach before. FYI Aonein, nothing you've said so far has made any difference in my original premise: That the DW Leafblades are not in fact, far superior to the RGF, and the proc ratio's are far from the 1-2% difference you "exaggerated". The DW Leafblades weighed in at 203 DPS, the RGF 214. DPS wise, practically even. Message Edited by Tuddar on 12-21-2005 12:15 AM
You lost your argument yet again with this Tuddar : Tuddar wrote : The only point you've made is two things. One, the mobs you were fighting had either less HP's or you had more strength while fighting, therefore doing more damage per hit. Two, the RNG is doing it's job. How could i do less swings but more procs if the mobs had less HP? How does STR effect my ability to proc over the same amount of mobs you killed? Before you say something dumb like " STR doesnt help your ability to proc it helps you do more damage " then let me help you to better understand this also, How on gods green earth could i do more procs if i was killing the mobs faster due to more STR? And you question me about statistic analysis......
Lol, you just really don't understand, do you? Let's do a little math, and show you how even a small difference in the number of procs can make a large difference in the % when the sample size is small. 14/260 = 5.4% 14/404 = 3.5% 11/260 = 4.2% 17/404 = 4.2% If I had proc'd 3 more times, and you proc'd 3 less, the numbers would be the same. That's why small sample sizes aren't used: A lucky break on the RNG or a dry run will make large differences in %'s when your divisor is small. Do a sample size of 50, then we'll see how your proc rate works out.
So explain to me this. Why did your test without CA's did it take you almost twice as many swings to produce just 6 more procs? Logically, if you got 14 procs with just 260 swings, then you would have gotten 28 procs with 520 swings. But you didn't. Out of 493 swings, you only got 20 procs. If we go by the proc rate of your test with CA's, you should have gotten 27. 14/260 = 5.4% 20/493 = 4%. And yes, I do question you about statistical analysis, because if you had even thought about the differences in the numbers between your tests in the very same post, you would have answered your own question instead of asking me. Again, that's why you use a larger test set, because the answer to my last question (and yours) is the fluctuations in the RNG. I don't, you don't, no one has any control over the RNG. So the only way to get good numbers is to increase your data set large enough to minimize it's impact on the calculations. Message Edited by Tuddar on 12-21-2005 01:20 AM
Tuddar you got to be kidding me man, we arent talking a small difference here, we are talking 144 swings difference from mine to yours, the RNG doesnt effect auto attack speed. Once again, we both had 100% hit ratios, making every single hit a hit takes out any fluctuations that could of exsisted if we were to fight a mob that was 5 levels below us, again, we are showing a 100% true indication of what would happen IF every fight was had a 100% hit ratio. Why did i do my test without CA's? To prove to you that your first set of numbers was BS, and the only way to get that amount of swings, was to not use any CA's........do you now see the point im trying to make or are you still bent on trying to be right and everyone else is 100% wrong unless they use statalyzer? Like i said, your numbers do not hold water, because of the reasons i pointed out, when you do a test like you also pointed out the numbers stable themselves out and there is less chance of flucuation in spikes etc, your RGF fights show that and i pointed it out but your Dual Weild fights dont show this, your Dual Weild fights show flucation even over a 50 mob test with a 100% hit ratio. Surely you dont expect other people who are reading this to believe that 144 swings is a " small difference " when my fights where averging at around 60 swings to begin with ( When using CA's ) and by the way, if you read my posts correctly i acually stated the mobs i was fighting had around 15 to 16k HP thats 15,000 to 16,000 HP, doing tests on mobs with such a large HP pool takes out any flucation that could of possible exsisted to begin with then it would be like killing a mob with say for example 5,000 HP, still following me now Tuddar? This is why i find your first set of numbers to be false and randomly generated thinking i wasnt so smart, then when i did more tests and this time supplied you screenshots of both CA usage and a session without CA usage you came back with numbers close to mine that were close to your predicted value. A man of your intelligence should know that 144 swings isnt a " small difference ", cant believe you think it is, thats like saying if i did a 1000 mob parse test that 2000 swings is a small difference.
I'm about to show you where the difference in the swing amounts come from, and had you paid attention to my screenshots, you would have seen it. I did not use Amputate during the fights. If you look at the screen shots above, you can see it's not there at all. Which means you were probably doing more damage due to the DoT. Before I stopped using it because it was a mess trying to account for the DoT showing as a hit in the logs, I was getting 2.5k of damage out of it. Had I used it, then I would have done higher DPS and therefore produced less swings. Notice my average damage above for pierce was 125 damage. 2500/125 = 20. So if I had used Amputate, I would have had to swing 20 less times. 404/5 = 80 swings per fight. Subtract 20. 60 swings per fight. Make sense now? Now, on to some simpler math. The mobs I fought had 16k HP. I was doing 200 DPS, as I stated before. 404/5 = 81 hits. 81x200 = 16K. Take a look at my 50 fights. 4336 swings out of 50 fights. 4336/50 = 86 swings. The amount of swings on this are a little higher, because two of the mobs ended up having 32K hp instead of 16k. Thanks SOE. I wasn't out to prove my DPS, I was out to prove what the proc rate was. More swings=large sample set and less RNG spikes. It doesn't matter whether the swing is a CA or an auto-attack, the proc rate is the same. You'll have to forgive me if after 50 fights I wasn't banging out the CA's. Tells and the occasional answer in guild chat meant that sometimes I wasn't hitting CA's as often as I could have. It's not like you can put the mob on pause. And for calculating the proc ratio, it doesn't make any difference how many swings it takes to kills a mob, the proc ratio over a large enough sample will mean that you will average the same number of proc in 260 swings as you would get if it took you 520 swings. My numbers come straight out of the logs, and they aren't false. And as you can see above, the difference in swings is pretty easy to understand once you realize I was limiting my CA DPS. Finally, you are concentrating on the wrong things. It doesn't matter how many swings it takes to kill a mob, only how many procs go off and what that proc ratio works out to be. To answer your last remark, on a 1000 mob parse, if you swing 80 times each fights, that's 80000 swings. If you did 2000 more swings, that would be 82000 swings. That would be a 2.5% difference, so yes, it would be small. And to top it off, from a standpoint of determining a proc ratio, wouldn't make a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bit of difference. Or put it in a way you might understand better, a 1000 mob parse would mean you would hit just 2 times more each fight to come up with 2000 more hits. A man of my intelligence would say 2 hits per fight on mobs that have 16K hp isn't a big difference. :smileywink: Message Edited by Tuddar on 12-21-2005 06:57 AM
wow! look what I started! I hate to interrupt you 2, because honestly it is actually pretty interesting, and nice to see the hard #'s.... However, I would like to point out that when I initially started this thread, and my subsequent posts, were not referring to me even having an option of getting a 3.8 delay 2-hander.... While I understand ( and your guys' posts have proved ) that Dual-Wielding Cobalt Leafblades = nearly identical DPS as the RGF, you aren't taking into account the fact that well, not everyone has access to an RGF... In fact, I can pretty much guarantee I will never have an RGF....but I AM able to mine rare metals from nodes, which means that regardless of what fabled weapons there are out there, I am pretty much limited exclusively to rare crafted weapons - of which, AFAIK, there are none with 3.8 delay or close to that.... I hit 30, and got a pristine imbued feysteel halberd just for looks, and a set of pristine imbued feysteel leafblades... the reason I went with leafblades, is actually purely due to this discussion - because despite the discrepancies between an RGF & 2 x Cobalt Leafblades, no one has disputed the fact that if you want to maximize your dps while dual-wielding ( again, assuming that you will never get access to a fabled weapon ) you go with Leafblades period....I had heard this, but your guys' hard facts have convinced me this is the way to go - so for that thanks!
I am just glad someone actually read it all and put it simple for folks like me. I saw all that crap and decided I wanted to know what it all meant but not bad enough to actually read it all. So Thanks Astriaal
I'm glad you found the information useful. I was making a point to some folks who had asserted that the Leafblades were far superior to the RGF, when the fact of the matter is they aren't. Regardless of whether people have access to the RGF or not, claiming something when it's factually incorrect is something I will speak up about. Regardless of that side conversation, the Leafblades are the best Legendary combo out there for zerkers. Don't be too sure about never getting an RGF. They are down to around 6pp on the broker on my server, and there are normally 4 or 5 of them up for sale. When you hit 50, who knows.
Tuddar can you please run that 50 mob parse again using the RGF since the recent LU18 changes please man and post the screen shot here of statalyzer. The changes have effected Unbridled Fury pretty badly, we only just had that CA nerfed and now its been hit with another nerf now due to only procing in Primary hand, basically i cant get it over 3.5% over a 50 mob parse, i tests the 50 mob parse with a set of ironwood batons and it got even worse and went down to 2.5%, its pretty ugly, but im just curious if 2 handers changed at all, if you get time can you do that test please man, did Angler with one group other day and no RGF so im locked out for 6 days and before you suggest it, no ive never ever seen a RGF for sale on the broker on Everfrost server. Yes you were correct also, i was concentrating on the wrong things when parsing and i didnt factor out Amputate which you pointed that out, thank you for pointing those things out.
50 fights, RGF parse: Total hits = 1072+51+153+140+127+237+261+220+51=2312 Ancient Flame Proc rate: 341/2312=0.14749134948096885813148788927336, or 14.7% Fury Proc rate: 266/2312=11.5% Fury proc'd about the same as last time. Ancient Flame took a dip from my last parse, but is actually closer in this parse to the original predicted rate of 15.2%. Tudds
It's impossible to tell for sure if Fury is proc'ing on the second weapon, because if you only equip a weapon in your secondary (no primary equipped) you will miss 100% of the time. SOE has obviously set things up so that most calculations are done via the primary slot. If secondary worked truly independently of primary, then when I have a weapon equipped only in the secondary I'd still be able to hit. I'll do another set of parses with the leafblades, one with only the primary equipped and then one with both hands equipped. If the rate drops when both are equipped, then that means that something is wrong. Tudds Message Edited by Tuddar on 12-22-2005 03:32 PM
Hmm so this is the old RGF (a slow 2-hander) is much better than DW:ers (even slow ones, like leafblades) debate Aonein and Tuddar are having here? You got to any conclusions? Im curious, since im always been a 2-hander fan myself and it used to be better than DW:s especially when using lotsa CA:s... Havent tested myself thou (after the supposed upgrade to the DW) I read some of your posts, but i couldnt get a clear picture, thats why i was asking for some summary *EDIT*hmm just found this on some other post:Aonein says:" In the end it pans out to be the same with no weapon being any more superiour then the other and its all based upon taste. "I believe that myself too actually... dunno there may be some tweaks towards 2h or DW but in the end im pretty sure they'll even out... even the proccing and other stuff... ++Xan Message Edited by xandez on 12-27-2005 12:52 PM Message Edited by xandez on 12-27-2005 01:11 PM
I did some tests after LU18 changes and compairing them too before LU18 changes, if anyone is interested in the changes, check them out here. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=1883#M1883
Actually, high delay two handers still have a sizeable advantage, all things being equal. In this thread, I showed that a *T5* Fabled 2-hander was comparable to a pair of *T6* Legendary dual wields. SOE's manner of equalizing things was to not make any two handers with delays much higher than DW combo's in DoF. This is the reason I believe we haven't seen any high delay two-handers out of DoF, as I alluded to in the thread.
