Shaman Itemization and General mechanics

Discussion in 'General Priest Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-ErikGunner, Jun 8, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-Hene Guest

    Malachani wrote:
    I never implied otherwise, I was just showing you how this is incorrect:
    Malachani wrote:

    Malachani wrote:
    Well what is the problem with the suggested fix, that makes you dislike it so? And do you have any suggestion on how to change how crit bonus is applied to wards?
  2. ARCHIVED-Banditman Guest

    The point is that Shaman right now are on the decreasing side of an equation that is continuing to gain momentum with each increase to the current itemization limits. The more crit bonus and potency come into play, the farther and farther behind a Shaman will fall.
  3. ARCHIVED-ErikGunner Guest

    Banditman wrote:
    Atleast we gain full effectiveness from potency though, but with the overwhelming lean of itemization going towards crit bonus, we are going to keep falling unless something is done. I have no interest in being overpowered or anything, but honestly while gearing up in this expansion I want to feel like I'm gaining as much as the other healers, and just know down the road my class won't be in shambles because of an old mechanic screwing us over.
  4. ARCHIVED-Hene Guest

    Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:
    Directly, we get full potency, but because crit bonus is multiplied after potency is multiplied in, we actually see

    a significant decrease in potency's effectiveness...


    For a 1k heal and 50 crit bonus:

    0 Potency w/crit->1.8k (1.8/1 = 180% i.e. 80% gain from base heal value)

    10 Potency w/crit->1.98k (1.98/1 = 198% i.e. 98% gain from base heal value)

    100 Potency w/crit->3.6k (3.6/1 = 360% i.e. 260% gain from base heal value)

    For a 1k ward and 50 crit bonus:

    0 Potency w/crit->1.4k (1.4/1 = 140% i.e. 40% gain from base heal value)

    10 Potency w/crit->1.54k (1.54/1 = 154% i.e. 54% gain from base heal value)

    100 Potency w/crit->2.8k (2.8/1 = 280% i.e. 180% gain from base heal value)



    So from the first 10% potency a heal gets an additional 18% of its base heal value added while a ward only gets 14% of its base heal value added...this is with the exact same stats/gear/etc and not taking into account the differing base values...
  5. ARCHIVED-Banditman Guest

    Exactly. Crit bonus is the absolute last step in the calculation. Therefore, because our crit bonus is halved, it has an impact on the effectiveness of every single piece of the equation.
  6. ARCHIVED-Malachani Guest

    Hene wrote:
    What part of "The equation for how crit bonus applies to wards needs to be reevaluated." is hard to understand. I don't know HOW, because I'm not a dev. I just know that before crit bonus was a stat on armor, it worked. Now that it is, its not working. Not my job to figure out the new calculation needed.
  7. ARCHIVED-Banditman Guest

    There is no need to change the way crit bonus works for wards, no need at all. There is nothing wrong with it.
    Originally, crit bonus was set as it is for Wards because other healers were working with a range of numbers on their heal spells. Where a Shaman got a Ward for a specific amount, every other healer got a range - 100 to 200 for instance.
    So, when any other healer would "crit" their ward, it was very possible, even likely, that they would get a "crit" that was no better than a non-crit with a better base roll.
    For instance, over a course of 10 rolls, another healer using that 100-200 spell might expect to get crits like:
    201, 201, 201, 201, 225, 210, 250, 201, 242, etc
    Thus, because a Shaman Ward would *always* crit for over the base amount, the crit bonus was lowered by .15 for a Ward. The problem is, everyone (myself included, and even the devs) saw that as "half". That's not what it was at all.
    It was a reduction of .15 for a crit ward that (so we are told) led to have crit wards balanced against crit heals.
    If they had simply continued in that manner, no one would be complaining.
    For instance, my overall crit multiplier is around 1.95. Now, if my Wards were crit'ing at 1.80, you know what? I'd be ok with it. I'd probably still mumble under my breath a little bit about it, but I'd get over it. Unfortunately, that's not the case.
    Instead of making the adjustment a simple subtract operation, it was put in as a divide operation.
    To compare, the current mechanics applied to the original equation would actually have Wards "crit" for less than their maximum value. Thus, we are continually losing ground to a poorly thought out equation as crit bonus continues to rise.
  8. ARCHIVED-Tehom Guest

    I imagine they didn't change much of anything when they added crit bonus in regards to our wards. The equation was probably always that the benefit of critting was halved for us. Crit bonus just changed the value that they halved before applying it to us.
    I think a reasonable solution like you've suggested is just to have the value of wards critting be .15 lower than that of native heals - so wards would always see some penalty, but that the relative difference would diminish as crit bonus increases, rather than create an increasingly large gulf between heals/wards.
  9. ARCHIVED-snowline Guest

    It's a pretty simple fix really right now it's:
    ward critbonus = critbonus/2
    the formula just needs to be changed to
    ward critbonus = critbonus-0.15

    So we go back towards the orignal plan of sometimes wards get a 15% penalty not the current situation of wards ALWAYS get a 40-70% and growing penalty.
  10. ARCHIVED-StaticLex Guest

    The ward system needs a total revamp to end this BS once and for all.
    Wards should only absorb some percentage (60%?) of damage each time damage is dealt. Shaman direct heals would need to be tweaked to make up for any lost heal power. Crit bonus could be fully utilized and pairing a shaman with the other heal classes wouldn't be such a flaming joke. The end.
  11. ARCHIVED-Banditman Guest

    That would create an even bigger nightmare than we already have. Every raid in the game would have to be adjusted. Your change would force the rebalance of every single aspect of combat.
    You think on that a minute, and ponder the mess created recently (and still unresolved) when only one aspect was tweaked - the removal of the potency cap.
    I think it much more likely to simply fix the formula for crit Wards than to rebalance the entire game.
    Maybe it's just me.
  12. ARCHIVED-Malachani Guest

    Banditman wrote:
    See, I knew someone who was much more mathematically inclined would figure out the equation =P
  13. ARCHIVED-Hene Guest

    Banditman wrote:
    I don't see how this is a disadvantage...from 1.3 crit bonus they get more than 30% gain in healing ability...
  14. ARCHIVED-StaticLex Guest

    Banditman wrote:
    The way wards work is stupid and broken beyond this silly little crit bonus flap. And it's certainly not my fault they made the mistake way back when the game launched and have never bothered to correct it. As far as rebalancing every single aspect of combat, that is a gross exaggeration. Various mobs and mechanics would undoubtedly need tuning but it's by far the better route than patching garbage design year after year after year. In fact, I'd be surprised if it doesn't become some sort of ultimate roadblock to new mechanics sooner or later anyway.
  15. ARCHIVED-Tehom Guest

    It would also very possibly completely destroy the shaman classes. No thanks.
  16. ARCHIVED-ErikGunner Guest

    StaticLex wrote:
    I seriously can't even fathom your logic at all
  17. ARCHIVED-ArcaneMundi Guest

    Another way to look at this growing problem is to imagine the healing difference at end game as a gear stat on your armor. How would all you Shaman feel if the Druids and Clerics had a breast plate that had a +50% to all heals set bonus, and the Shaman got no set bonus?
  18. ARCHIVED-hortefoutre Guest

    Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    That's a bit exagerated since wards are not 100% of our healing power, transcendance is sometimes accouting for 30% or more, especially if i not in the MT group. But your image is still mostly correct. What totally blows is that devellopers do not seem to care. Apparently since we do parse well (due to mecanic), and since wards may be requied to avoid the MT to be one shot our HPS may well suck totally.