SF, what did we learn?

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by Jandraligeli, Jun 17, 2017.

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  1. Givin Active Member

    Nice strawman. You want to compare MMO vitae's next?

    How are you supposed to improve your character when nobody is playing the game if you enter into it later in its life cycle because the road is too long, tedious and boring solo. Again, nobody is asking for easy mode here, you're going way overboard with the assumptions because you have a hard on for people who power game apparently.

    You're not increasing the difficulty by slowing the xp rate, you're moving the goal posts farther and farther away every time an expansion unlocks so nobody wants to play your game anymore and give you money for the blatant exp pot grab that you're relying on to fund the game. The only thing you've said that makes sense is to lock an expansion at a popular point for a while. Except it wont work like your Agnaar example because EQ2 isn't nearly as popular and can't sustain itself except for these short burst TLP cash grabs.

    The grind doesn't bother me because its just a mindless necessity no matter how fast or slow the exp rate is, and it would be great if what you're trying say were true but it isn't. Everything you did on Stormhold and RTT resulted in the same .1% exp increase across the board with very little variation. It doesn't matter if you "get gud" and kill harder stuff because harder stuff gives the same .1% as the field of blues you could round up and AE slaughter. The difference is the harder stuff takes longer to do. Quests, even the ones you have to "get gud" for give a pittance of exp they once did. So now I guess your counter points will be "But you did it. You completed them as part of a team and that's your reward. Its about the journey not the destination" Did that 10+ years ago Chief. You want to wear the T Shirt and hold the plaque of accomplishment I got for it back then?

    People will do it if they want to be a part of it. If they don't they won't. Sucks to be anybody who decides to get on board 9 months from now without friends. Good news for anybody who harvests shines I guess.
    Mizgamer62 likes this.
  2. Synistra Active Member

    That FAQ made my heart sink. I was really hoping they'd hold off on the vitality/exp potions for at least a month. I was also hoping for at least Stormhold levels of exp though, and from reading beta threads about people's experience it looks like it will be lower than SH. Rough.

    I play on Phinny TLE on EQ1 and the experience rates there make your eyes bleed being so slow. Trying to help friends catch up that have been gone since classic (Phinny is in PoP/LDoN) is a nightmare; it's only going to get worse there as expansions open. The only reason I mention Phinny is because now FG seems to be following in it's footsteps and while the grind will suck for people on Day 1 of FG it's going to suck much more playing catch up if anyone decides to make a character later into the server. This is such a bad idea and I wish they would change it. They don't have to make the experience "live level" fast, but it would be nice for alt-a-holics and new players (later) alike if they didn't have to slog so long to catch up. That's what a lot of people are complaining about on live servers now, though it's not due to experience and more because of Ascension grinds for 2.0s etc.

    I'm concerned about mob difficulty. People are going to be running around in mostly TS gear until raids start being knocked over, and even then it will take a bit to gear people up. So if ^^^ mobs are still stomping the floor with people because they re-tuned combat then that will increase how long it will take people to level and greatly limit where more casual players have to exp. I plan on making a character on FG on day 1, but I really hope the people behind the wheel have thought this through.
    Xephane likes this.
  3. Givin Active Member

    Just read that FAQ.....

    I want to play your game. I want to have fun doing it. I want to be able to level multiple characters that can fulfill multiple roles during eras of the game I have missed. I want to pay you fifteen American dollars every month for the privilege to slay internet dragons and loot virtual swords with glowing effects. I also would like to purchase pretty outfits and particles and baubles that allow me to play pretty princess dress up with my characters and make them look cool and unique in this virtual world. I might even buy an exp pot here and there for alts if I'm in a rocking group. I might even spring for a group one if it cons the healers and tanks into staying longer because hell yeah, we be grinding.

    I do not however want to feel rooked into giving you money for temporary boosts to exp just to catch up to the curve later on down the line because it has been set so soul crushing low. I do not want that fact to be a hard sell to anyone who might come along and be interested in playing this game because yes, they will need to buy those to catch up.

    Good luck selling those pots to nobody that will be playing. Feel free to copy this post to Discord so you can ban me there because this post hurt your feelings. It's easy for people to tell you that it's all about the journey when they won't be walking the path beside you because FUGM already while the crowd was leveling.
    Mizgamer62 and Xephane like this.
  4. ssiard New Member

    As a player who has never played EQ2, I am very disappointed in allowing the purchasing of XP boosts :/
  5. seith New Member

    I just cant wrap my head around the exp thing. They must have done the calculations and found they would make more money that way with the dedicated few who will stick around.

    If you look at eq1, the devs are doing everything right. They gauge the communities interest and found that a PoP locked server was in demand, they launch it with great exp values, and the server is exploding with a massive community.

    Eq2 is doing almost the opposite, not listening to the community, and hamstringing the server before it even begins. This server will not stand the test of time. It already has less interest than SF did, and that was dead in the water a few months in. And was a literally dead by kunark.
    Mizgamer62 and Xephane like this.
  6. Synistra Active Member

    A lot of people who left and went to Agnarr on EQ1 were tired of the b.s. exp grind on Phinny. I never understood why they had increased exp on a server that would be locked at PoP but lowered exp on a server with set expansion open dates. To me it seems that people would buy more exp potions when the experience on the server is set higher than when it is not. It may seem counter intuitive but in my mind I'd rather fork over the money for them when I'm already getting a decent amount of exp without them so I can get that much more exp with a potion. It doesn't make me feel like I -have- to dig into my pocket to enjoy my experience, it makes me -want- to. I always thought experience potions were supposed to be there to give people that "double exp" feeling whenever they wanted it, not because the server's experience was set around them. It's not just about making people spend money it's about giving the players a choice and making them feel good about their purchase. People shouldn't have to be cornered into buying exp potions for the exp to be tolerable.
    Xephane likes this.
  7. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    To be fair, they haven't actually said vit/xp pots will be available, just that "most" of the marketplace will be open. Unless they have confirmed that elsewhere and I haven't seen it. But it is entirely possible that that "most" does not include them.
  8. Meaghan Stormfire Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I'm perfectly willing to give Fallen Gate a shot to see if it's a smoother ride this go around, but if they have xp pots on day 1, yeah no.
    Mizgamer62 and Snikkety like this.
  9. Nilyana Member

    It would be nice if they left them out, at least at the beginning, but I'm not going to hold my breath for that one. Also makes me more doubtful that they'll listen to the exp issues that have been raised. But, I guess we'll know for sure in a few days, if they don't mention it sooner.
  10. Mashef Member

    Why the endless tears about exp rates? I am sure they will increase as it goes. It's not like there is much to do in classic/dof anyways. They didn't state they won't be increasing exp a few expansions in. Hopefully they continue to ease the barrier entrance. For now, its no big deal.
  11. ssiard New Member

    A number of the beta testers think it is too slow right now on the FG beta. Meaning it will take too long to get to max level and then not be enough time to finish the content before the first expansion is unlocked. It will also burn out players too fast, killing the server.
    Mizgamer62 and Xephane like this.
  12. Proh New Member

    I think they could manage without vitality potions day 1, something about paying for a 3x modifier just doesn't seem right on a brand new server. Xp pots, well... make them 4 hour duration ~ bank on players not grinding every minute of that potion and profit off people's afk and downtime.

    Someone will log in on Wednesday, go to create a character and there will be level 40+ Beastlord after a single day. Can't wait for this classic experience baby, see everyone next week!
  13. Givin Active Member

    They would have fixed it on Stormhold already if they wanted to, just like dead server Isle of Refuse. It doesn't support the bottom line. And nobody is crying crocodile tears. Pointing out a terrible thing isn't crying about it. Its not going to be what some people want, so they won't go. No big deal. They had a chance to win back the Stormhold people that left en mass. They chose not to take it. Probably because it would kill what is left of the other two gimmick servers.

    I'm not going to bother due to the slow rates. Nothing of value was lost on either side of the argument.
    Mizgamer62 and Xephane like this.
  14. Nilyana Member

    Why are you sure of that? They didn't on SH. And although people have been talking about it on the forums, there's been no official word that they're even thinking about doing it for FG, either.
    Mizgamer62, Xephane and Mermut like this.
  15. Mashef Member

    Well, if they are copying the EQ1 model for Phinny (which is exactly what is happening), they announce a new server, secretly make exp worse than expected (Phinny actually didn't even announce slower rates players figured it out) to cash grab potions...then you increase exp twice during the first 4 expansions and now with GoD coming out on Phinny they are increasing it again...Following this model there would be 3 exp boosts to keep players coming in.

    I am going to go out on a limb and say DBG has small developer teams and they communicate what works as a business model. Whether folks want to admit it or not SH was a beta to see if future TLP's would generate enough revenue.

    So many complained that 12 week lockouts were too short for a server with no voting. So instead of making the lockouts longer they lowered exp and boosted mob mitigation to increase challenge.

    This satisfies the hardcores who will be 50 in a week anyways. They get to distance themselves as they are wanton to do and have slightly increased difficulty on raids.

    This also satisfies the more casual players who will spend 4 to 6 weeks to get 50 and can then do some raiding to finish quest lines such as prismatic or peacock. OR level crafters and alts if you are a non-raider. You could have 2-3 toons to 50 if you don't plan on doing raids to accomplish the major quest line for each expansion.

    This is all theory and conjecture but I really don't think it will be exactly like SH. EQ1 has always done something slightly different for each of their TLP's and I don't see a reason EQ2 wouldn't mimic something that is successful.
  16. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Making xp super slow does NOT satify 'more casual players'. Not at all.

    When Stormhold came out I started playing there as a place to take a break from live while still playing EQ2. Leveling was so much of a chore that it wasn't something I could do 'casually' on the side as a break. I'd have had to swap to Stormhold as my 'main' and put all my time there.
    Mizgamer62 and Xephane like this.
  17. questiondude New Member

  18. questiondude New Member

    First of all my comments on difficulty and such were in response to this I bet you also believe having 60 abilities across 5 hotbars make EQ2 players better at playing MMORPGs too.

    Most people who want a little higher exp rate know it has nothing to do with difficulty, and everything about not wanting a blatant daybreak cash potion grab that is designed to fail and die because it makes barrier of entry to difficult for people who do not get in on the ground floor. So they keep popping them out yearly to grab a quick bump in exp pot sales.

    ...and we'll be making the same posts next year for the next TLP. Except they won't be near as lucrative as Stormhold was. Fool me twice, shame on me and all that.

    which was directed at me.

    Also I think making xp slow adds to the difficulty for sure. You can either kill a thousand blue mobs to gain a level or 100 yellow mobs. It pushes you to be a more skilled player. Again this is EVERquest, not lazy people cry and get what they want real easy quest. If you level up super fast this makes getting upgrades and grouping pointless at lower levels and if your joining the server late well than suck it up find someone else who just started or who is rolling an alt, it will still be easy and way shorter than eq1.... WHy get good upgrades at level 20 when you can hit lv 25 in a couple hours.... And you say eq2 isn't nearly as popular u want to know why? because eq2 is way easier and faster. People want a challenge, balance and meaningful upgrades which eq1 does partly through slow leveling. You can't achieve this by making leveling faster which is easier.
  19. Synistra Active Member

    Making exp slow only adds to the difficulty of finding time to play for most people. Later it ends up making things difficult because people don't want to level alts because the exp is so bad. You're not going to convince anyone here that slower exp is better exp. If people think that slow exp now will be "okay" because they will increase experience gains later, they are sorely mistaken. Truthfully first impression matters and if people come to FG and see that the experience grind is going to be slow they won't stick around and word of mouth will spread just how bad the experience is and people won't come later. So even IF they increase the experience gains later, no one is around to see it. What do you think happened to Phinny on EQ1? The minute Agnarr launched that server was a ghost town for every level group. It wasn't only because it was the replacement of EQ Mac, it was because the exp grind on Phinny was ridiculously slow. A week later and people under 65 were still having trouble getting groups. Even today - people are still having trouble finding groups. The sheer amount of people who PL others on that server for Krono or Plat show just how terrible the experience gains STILL are there and it's been what? A year? A year and a half?

    As for your upgrades at different levels statement I'll answer it super quick. You put upgrades at every tier in leveling so people can feel like they get something for the time they're putting in. It doesn't matter how quickly they out level it, people still like to get nice, new and shiny things. EQ2 is just as popular as EQ1 and the TLE servers are super popular, but not always for the "nostalgia" reasons most people think. People would actually like to be able to hop back in and play on live again but the end game is so convoluted and over complicated that people feel overwhelmed and have 0 idea where to begin, much less know anyone to level with. TLE servers are a great way to ease people back into the game; a "fresh start" if you will, where everyone is on the same playing field. But that doesn't mean that people want to be on that playing field for 2 months smelling the roses because the exp gains are worse than previous TLEs.

    People do like challenges, but they like attainable challenges. Things that make them look forward to growing their character, not being stuck behind some artificial wall that forces them to be there. You could still leave mob difficulty as it is (if it's doable) and increase the exp given for each kill and you wouldn't take away anything at all. The fight is still a challenge, the difficulty of the mobs are still as meaningful as they would have been if they gave less exp. The only difference is that you don't have to sit and stare at them as long as you would if they gave less. Some people actually like playing more than 1 character. Some people are alt-a-holics, and slow exp servers don't bring those people back and help them stick around. In a game with a dwindling population I would think we'd be looking for ways to help people maintain some "stickiness" not give them every excuse possible to leave or stay away.
    Prissetta likes this.
  20. questiondude New Member

    point one. You say the amount of xp between levels doesn't effect difficulty? So let's just make it 1 kill per level?

    point two... U say no matter how fast people level they still want upgrades..? that is not my experience and it makes no sense. Why worry about upgrades if it's so easy and fast u just blow right through them in a couple hours? and why bother to get a group to get these upgrades? faster xp discourages groups...

    point three... you say people like attainable challenges not being stuck behind some artificial wall? Every level is an artificial wall... It's a video game...

    Final point... making the game too easy and fast to level will make more people lose interest than people leaving because they don't want to spend the time to level.
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