Separate the Tradeskill AA from Adventuring AA!!

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Cinnimon, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. ARCHIVED-Caethre Guest

    General_Info wrote:
    (( A good question!
    There are many ways.
    But here is my first stab at answering this. This is what *I* would do, were I to be SOE-for-the-day:
    (1) Leave adventuring AAs as they are, with the cap of 320. However, the tradeskill AAs cannot be chosen from this pool of AA. This would therefore mean *zero* change for adventurers who are not crafters.
    (2) Create a crafting AA pool of 20. Allow these to be gained in some way via crafting Allow AAs from this pool to be spent on Crafting AAs from the Crafting AA tab.
    These would mean the Level/AA cap for Adventuring would remain 92/320, and there would be a separate Level/AA cap for Crafting which for now would be 92/20. This could of course be added to in future updates/expansions, but *crucially*, crafting updates and adventuring updates would be separate (and they do not even have to be updated at the same update).
    It would then leave two issues to be sorted out by SOE:
    (a) How would current AA pool be split between the two pools when the system is introduced? The simplest answer would be: give each player a one-time choice. SOE may put restrictions in as they see fit, like you must be at least a level X crafter to put any into the crafting pool, or whatever they see fit. Minor details, frankly, because (b) below is the one that really matters.
    (b) How would crafters then gain crafting AA? This is especially poignant for existing capped crafters who have done the quests. There would need to be some way dreamt up for doing this. This thread is not about that, and would be a separate exercise in itself.
    This direction would be wonderful for crafters, whether they are "pure crafters" or "adventurer/crafters" like me. They would of course have zero impact at all on adventurers who do not craft.
    And these are just the ideas off the top of my head - I'm sure SOE will create more!
    The first step is the separate of AAs. And that is what I want to see. Hence my feedback on this thread asking for precisely that ))
  2. ARCHIVED-General_Info Guest

    Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    so basically you want a seperation as an excuse to get more points out of the system what you are asking for is only partially different then when aod came out they added 20 points to allocate to ether and here you are asking for seperation and another 20 points. so you want the 320 points of a current pure combat spec plus 20 points for tradeskill spec.
    why should you be able to have it both ways and why should the devs make us collectively more combat powerful?
  3. ARCHIVED-Caethre Guest

    General_Info wrote:
    (( You say "as an excuse"? You imply that the purpose of those like myself who want AA separating is just "an excuse" to have the cap raised? If you think that, you have entirely misread the feedback, and are attributing negative motives where they do not exist.
    You say "make us more combat powerful"? This is factually incorrect. Combat power is measured from adventuring level, adventuring AA, spell/CA levels and gear alone. It is not affected by crafting level. It will not be affected by crafting AA either. Adding more crafting AA, whether it be 20, 50 or even 500, will not affect combat power one iota. And you know it.
    Encounters (solo, group and raid) are balanced against a cap of 92/320 adventurers. The assumption in balancing will be for the most common case where the character has spent those 320 AA in adventuring skills. Which is what most people actually do for anything challenging anyway.
    The only way you are implying someone is 'more powerful', is where a crafter/adventurer who has 320 AA has currently accepted being a weaker adventurer than everyone else by sacrificing some of their adventuring AA to use in crafting, and under my suggestion, they would no longer need to sacrifice adventuring power compared to other adventurers in this way. This is precisely the situation I want to have remedied, and I see it as a correction to a problem, not a power increase. The current situation punishes adventurers who happen to also be crafters on the same character. I would like every adventurer to be able to spend 320 AA in adventuring AA, and separate to that, every crafter should be able to spend (for example) 20 AA in crafting AA, and the two spheres be entirely unconnected.
    The fact that an adventurer/crafter would then potentially have 340 AA if you add the two spheres together, is entirely irrelevant. That is like saying my monk having 184 levels is more powerful as an adventurer than a level 92 monk who does not craft, it is poppycock. Again, you know this already.
    When I go LFG later, I won't be shouting "184/320 Monk-Carpenter LFG", and if I did, people would laugh at me (quite rightly too). The spheres are separate. I'll stick with "92/320 Monk LFG", regardless of whether I have 92 carpenter levels as well, and regardless of whether I might in the future have 20 crafting AA as well.
    =====
    The purpose of this thread is not to cause any change to adventuring at all. It is to separate crafting AA off in the same way as crafting levels are separated from adventuring levels. Has this singular point got through? I have repeated this three times now, what the aim of this feedback is. (That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but summing up the motives behind the change as something entirely different from what they are is not helping anyone).
    My hopes are:
    - Create a separate pool for crafting AA.
    - In doing so, try to have no impact on pure adventurer players.

    My suggestion meets my objectives, and I don't see another way of meeting them offhand, although of course it could be done at the next cap raise anyway. It is also a fantastic basis for the future, to allow crafting to gain further developments (more AAs) without ever again impacting adventuring power, and crafters could receive new AAs and new ideas from that point on, without ever having any impact on adventuring ever again.
    This would be wonderful for adventurer/crafters, and also pretty nice for pure crafters too, looking to the future. And it would have no impact on pure adventurers at all.
    All this said, my approach was just one way it could be done, and I am sure SOE can think of others.
    The feedback remains:
    We would like to be able to select AAs in both independently, and would like not to be forced to choose between adventuring AA and crafting AA. The answer is, and always has been, to have separate AA pools for Adventuring and Crafting ))
  4. ARCHIVED-General_Info Guest

    Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    by going with your idea exactly you are increasing most people's combat power by freeing upto 20 points they currently have spent in tradeskill trees and then giving them 20 points to spend in the tradeksill aa boxes.
    someone who has 300 spent in adventure and 20 in tradeskill will become more powerful as they could allocate 20 more points into adventure and get 20 seperate points for tradeskill. The only difference between that and a flat increase to the aa cap from 320>340 is with a global cap increase people still have choice on where those aa go and there is still a balancing act between adventure and tradeskill AAs.
    second level cap encounters are balanced around 280-320 AAs as 280 is the minimum requirement to level past 90.
    only having 300 AAs in adventure is not a handicap, people with 320 in adventure are just better off in combat and you are better off then them in regards to harvesting/crafting.
    you ether full spec adventure or you hybrid spec not both.
  5. ARCHIVED-Caethre Guest

    General_Info wrote:
    (( Again, you are summarizing back to me the current system as it is. We all already know what the current system does, and repeating it back to everyone again is not helpful. The fact that the AA cap is 320 now and that at the moment characters who are both adventurers and crafters are forced to choose between either being the same power as non-crafting adventurers and not having crafting AA, or being weaker adventurers than non-crafters and choosing some crafting AA, is obviously the case.
    Yes, we know how it currently works. Some of us just do not like the current system and consider it unfair to adventurer/crafters, and are requesting that it be modified to remove that unfairness. That is the very purpose of the feedback (well, the initial purpose, it has grown to something more than that now as well).
    The purpose of this thread is to request a CHANGE to the current system, to one that we on this thread believe would be better for crafters and better for adventurer/crafters, whilst at the same time having no impact whatsoever on adventurers who do not craft.
    In such a CHANGED system:
    - Every adventurer can spend 320 AA in adventuring AA, whether they are a crafter or not. This balances adventuring for adventurer/crafters compared to pure adventurers, and has absolutely zero impact on pure adventurers.
    - Every crafter can spend however many crafting AA are available (I'd suggest 20 to start with), regardless of whether they are an adventurer or not.
    Yes, every adventurer/crafter would then be able to earn 320 AA adventuring and 20 AA crafting, in the same way she can currently earn 92 levels in adventuring and 92 levels in crafting.
    This is the aim: To separate the pools completely, and allow each sphere to be developed separately. But this is not just a solution for adventurer/crafters who are currently forced to choose adventuring or crafting AA, who would then be able to choose both. It is also a fantastic idea for all crafters for the future.
    Crafting AA development can then move forward in future expansions/updates without worrying about impact on adventuring at all. Separate pools is the way to go, for all crafters and adventurer/crafters alike.
    And there is no downside! (well, apart from people who consider any developer work on crafting to be a waste of time, but I am never going to see eye-to-eye with that attitude so it's wasting time even having such a debate).
    Once again, you do not need to agree, but that is our feedback ))
  6. ARCHIVED-General_Info Guest

    Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    except for the part where the total number of AAs you can invest in adventurer is not equal to the total which you could invest into the tradeskill tree and let's not forget AAs are allocated and can be reset later once you gain a level you can't backtrack if you have a change of heart.
    and how would you feel if they seperated them but didn't raise the total global number of AAs combined? (e.g 320AAs>300adventure-20TS or 280 adventure-40TS)
    as for future expansions given they added prestige points i think they'll be taking advancement down that route since they are gained by pure leveling and not extra grinding for them.
  7. ARCHIVED-Caethre Guest

    General_Info wrote:
    (( Whilst there are a lot of keen crafting players, and they are significant in number, it is still clear that the majority of the playerbase are either pure adventurers who do not craft, or are mainly adventurers who consider crafting as a side-issue. Already there are huge numbers of adventurers with 320 AA, who of course have all those AA in adventuring skills.
    Any approach that says to all those adventurers "hey, we are REDUCING the number of AAs you can have in the adventuring AA trees" is going to go down like a lead ballon. There would be a huge outcry. It just not going to happen. SOE would never do it.
    The adventuring cap has to remain the same as the current cap, because the reality is, that is where most players play. Any changes made for crafters and adventurer/crafters cannot impact pure adventurers in a negative way. This is why I believe your suggestion here is never going to fly.
    ================
    With my suggestion, pure adventurers are 100% unaffected. The new pool for crafting AAs is *extra* AAs, purely for crafting, earned by crafters, and only boosts crafting (and harvesting, since SOE seem to link the two, tho theoretically harvesting need not have been linked, but that's a different discussion entirely).
    You are correct, however, in that in the idea I am proposing, the pools are *completely* separate, and that:
    - AAs earned from adventuring can only be used as adventuring AAs for adventuring AA skills
    - AAs earned from crafting can only be used as crafting AAs for crafting AA skills

    Forever the two will be separate. There will be no "re-setting" of crafting AA to be adventuring AA and vice-versa.
    But I contend that this is a "good thing". The two spheres are best off completely separated, allowing future development of one or the other without needing to worry about eachother.
    ================
    Yes, there is the *initial* issue of how the current combined pool is split between the two new pools, at the time the intial split is made, because the existing tradeskill AA tab would need to be moved to be chosen from Crafting AAs instead of from Adventuring AAs. I mentioned this issue earlier in the thread. There are a few ways this could be done.
    The easiest is to not allow any AA to move from the current combined pool, but just assume that all existing AA are "adventuring AA" and just start with 0/20 for crafting. Crafters would then have to earn their AAs in crafting by whatever approach SOE put in place for doing that. But this has a really large downside, because it would make many crafters very unhappy. Why? Because if a crafter has 20AA *now* in the combined pool and allocated to the crafting tab, those would be stuck in the adventuring pool, and that crafter would initially lose all those crafting skills until they re-grinded the crafting AA.
    A much better solution (because it has no negative impact at all) is to allow every player a one-time-only choice as to how many of their existing "combined" AA go into the crafting AA pool at the moment of the split. SOE could put some restrictions on this choice, like you need to be level X crafter, or whatever. This would leave it as a player choice. Once made, the player can then grind AA in both spheres independently.
    This is only a short-term issue however.
    Let me explain by means of example. Let's say my Fury character were to choose the initial split for her AAs from 320/320 combined ===> 310/320 adventure and 10/20 crafting. After it were done, she would gradually grind the remaining 10 adventuring AA back again by the normal adventuring means, to get back to 320/320 adventuring AA. Separately, she would also grind the other 10 new Crafting AA, by whatever process SOE put in place for gaining crafting AA. However, my monk might choose to leave all her 320 in adventuring, and need to grind all 20 crafting AA from scratch, whilst my templar/sage might choose to put all 20 into crafting, and need to grind 20 adventuring AA. Each player would have the choice, for each character.
    [I am assuming here that gaining these initial 20 crafting AA would not be by the 'prestige' approach, because the crafting level cap is already 92 and huge numbers of crafters are already at that cap, and giving AA "for free" is never a good idea. Future crafting AA added in updates and expansions to come, could then of course be added by a prestige approach when level cap raises happen, if that were SOE's wish.]
    ================
    Long-term, the outlook for crafting in EverQuest II is a lot brighter once the AA pools are completely split. It would allow SOE to add whatever they like to crafting, without imbalancing or even affecting adventuring at all ))
  8. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    I am a raider, lvl 92 Guardian and a lvl 91 armorer. I put all my AA points into adventuring. I am also a max level adorner. I use to have on my AA mirror a tradeskill spec that had the chance to make an item without using the materials so I perhap could save on manas when I make adornments.
    I found it so annoying to switch between specs that I stopped doing this. I hate switching specs and having to rebuff everything everytime. I also do this on my swashbuckler for the rare harvest chance and when I switch specs my poisons reset, which is a major pain, I do not want to waste my poisons just to switch between the two.
    I no longer bother switching between Tradeskill AA specs and Adventure Specs. On my Guardian/Armorer I have gotten rid of it completly. I think AA mirrors are for switching between 2 different adventuring specs, now with having tradeskill AA that has changed some what.
    If you consider the fact that there is Raid Apprentices that can only be gotten by some one who raids (or bought from a raider) that it shows that you can't split your AA's between tradeskill and adventure. On my non-raiding alts I would never put points in tradeskill AA when I am doing adventure zones. I know that is my choice, but any person who has a crafter and is serious about adventuring will never do group zones with points in tradeskill AA.
    I guess I don't understand why seperating the 2 would be such a big deal. I would be all for it. Just like I think crafters should be able to make items that help out crafting (I know a different topic) I like this idea, anything that will benefit crafters, though this idea will really only benefit the adventurer/crafter players and I don't see a problem with that.
  9. ARCHIVED-Hordolin Awanagin Guest

    Last post on the topic from me.

    To try to better illustrate: Currently on each AA tab you have a limit to the number of points you can spend in that tab. You have to pick and choose what to spend points in because you can't spend max points on every item in a tab before you run out of points that you're allowed to spend in that tab.
    So if you take the max you can spend in the tabs and add them together you get 40+100+100+70+50 = 360

    The maximum AA that you can earn is 320. That's 40 points that you SHOULD be able to spend but can't because you're capped at 320. The only thing that would have to be changed at all is up the cap to 360. Spend the 40 points wherever within the current tab maximums you're allowed to. It's easy. 2+2=4 NOT 2+2=3.8

    The only thing anyone gains is the ability to quit swapping out AA specs to craft at their most efficient or swap out specs to adventure at their most efficient. Yes, people at cap right now will have to go earn 40 more AA points but come on, if you're at cap it gives you something to do with all the xp that you're otherwise throwing away. If you're below cap, then it gives you the option to cap your adventure abilities faster or spread it evenly between crafting and adventuring or dump it all into crafting or whatever you like. You get to play without being forced to choose between two options (adventure OR craft).
  10. ARCHIVED-shots01 Guest

    Cinnimon wrote:
    I tend to agree which is why I don't use AA mirrors. Too much of a pain in the neck.
  11. ARCHIVED-Gealaen_Gaiamancer Guest

    General_Info wrote:
    I have AA mirrors set up in various houses so that I can swap between High Heal Adventuring (for grouping), High DPS Adventuring (for soloing) and Harvest/Tradeskill/General Survivability Hybrid. I also have bags of alternate gear to further enhance each of those AA specializations (generally the same kind of item for the two Adventuring specs, just with reforge and adorns better suited to Heals vs Melee DPS)--not quite full sets for each spec, but still a fair amount of stuff to carry around.
    How often do I swap these layouts and that gear around?

    Wait for it ...

    Not too often. It's too much like work, most of the time. Unless I'm about to get into a serious crafting run (100 or more combines--and that doesn't happen too often anymore) I usually don't bother swapping to Crafting spec and gear. Sometimes I don't even bother swapping to the Healing spec when I get a group, I just change stance and a few pieces of gear to be fully capable of keeping effective groupmates alive. Sometimes I get done a group and go to switch back to solo spec and gear ... and realize I've been set that way the whole time with no problem anyway!
    I guess if I was more of a parse-wh... parse-watcher, razor-edge min/maxing would be more critical. But given a generally high level of effectiveness in any of the three general playstyles that I favor (dungeon crawling, overland adventuring/exploring and crafting) I don't generally don't bother with the alternate settings I so painstakingly set up in the first place.

    (TL;DR version starts here:)
    All that said ... I'm not certain that there is a "problem" that needs to be fixed. You really don't need to spend any AA points in the Tradeskill options to be an effective crafter or harvester. I agree with other posters who commented that for most classes there are often 20-40 pts worth of "adventuring" AA options that can be ignored in favor of tradeskill picks if you so desired them!
    I will comment that I liked the idea of (IF there was a sep TS AA pool) making TS AA earned only through TS achievements/quests/combines. Not through TS leveling, though--the "Prestige Point" model works well enough for that, but we don't need a TS Prestige Point system.

    Edited to get rid of smiley where it didn't belong.
  12. ARCHIVED-Faecia Guest

    I'm all about separating TS and adventure AAs....SO LONG AS: One cannot earn more than the amount of AAs necessary to cap the tradeskill tree through crafting(ie you can't use AA you earn from crafting in the adventure trees) and one cannot spend AAs they earned while adventuring in the TS tree.
  13. ARCHIVED-Asif Guest

    shots01 wrote:
    I too agree i have 8- 92/92/320 toons all have mirrors but NEVER use them for tradeskilling saves its just not worth the time and effort to change it out.
    I think we should have like 92/92/320/40 ( 0nly useable when doing TS stuff or gathering ) keep it simple.
  14. ARCHIVED-General_Info Guest

    Asif wrote:
    just because you can put 40 points into tradeskill doesn't mean you should or that SOE should let you spend 40 points in it *if* they split tradeskill AAs from adventure AAs.
    anyway personally i think they intended to have the system as-is those who dont tradeskill can use those extra 20 points on adventure AAs and those that do pure tradeskill can with those that do both having to pick and choose between them.
    I believe that if they didn't add the tradeskill AA boces we wouldn't have gotten an AA cap boost and if they made them seperate from the get go i dont think they would have set the TS AA investment cap to 40.
  15. ARCHIVED-Boethius_Permafrost Guest

    Tradeskill and adventure levels were always different before, so having to give up aa points for crafting is kind of a change in philosophy, and it's annoying, and going to my mirror for every combine is annoying.
    What I'd like is the ability to spend aa in the first row of each adventure tree to get an equal number of tradeskill aa, thus fulfilling the "spend X points here on total junk" requirements to get my endlines. Then I could go to the tradeskill panel to allocate them to the actual tradeskill aa. That way, even though I'm giving up aa for tradeskills, at least I can use them as "points spent" prereq's at the same time.
  16. ARCHIVED-Zabjade Guest

    Hmm So refund the AA's currently in the Tradeskill area, and set up Prestige points based on Tradeskill quests in journal completed and level?
    If that is what you are suggesting, I'm all for that!
  17. ARCHIVED-Kuulei Guest

    Its not like the separation can't be done!
    Look at how they set up the Beastlord's AA's for their warders. Each warder type (in some cases up to 17 if you include the additional boar from the collector's edition and the 4 warders from aa Tame Exotic Warder) has a sperate tab and each tab gets up to 40 AA's to spend.
    I Think the hardest hit are the players that Adventure and Craft.
    As an avid crafter, do I forego the crafting aa's so my healing is up to par? You bet I do.
    What I have lost however, is the ability to have a group and raid AA setup or a Heal and Solo setup and keep a tradeskill / gathering AA setup.
    They NEED to re-evaluate this, rather than forcing me to forget my passion for tradeskilling effectively.
  18. ARCHIVED-General_Info Guest

    Kuulei wrote:
    you havent lost anything by force. spending zero AAs in the tradeskill tab is almost like before they added the tab in the first place the only difference is you get 20 more aas to spend.
    The AA system is designed as a pick and choose system and you want to undermine that? why dont you ask them to seperate AAs into specific types for all of the tabs at the same time?
    It is your own choice on where to spend them and not soe. you have tfour options spend all your AA in adventure, spend 300 AAs in adventure and 20 in tradeskill, spend 280 in adventure and 40 in tradeskill or any mixture of the two.

    you havent 'lost' anything you have gained an additional 20 AA points to allocate where you choose.
  19. ARCHIVED-Cinnimon Guest

    General_Info wrote
    "You havent lost anything by force?" I beg to differ for we are forced to go down one aa or the other
    "The AA system is designed as a pick and choose system and you want to undermine that?" undermine what? Tradeskill and adventuring are to seperate things so why be forced to choose between one or the other. Designed as a pick and choose? umm.. who really does this for most peeps I know go down the same certain aa's trees with a few exceptions because as I said before going to AA mirror everytime you want to do something different is tedious so most adventuring types stay with the same AA line up no matter what they are doing.
    It is your own choice on where to spend them? I don't think so for you are forced to go down certain AA Trees before others and that is not a choice.
  20. ARCHIVED-General_Info Guest

    Cinnimon wrote:
    there is always a choice saying otherwise is a cop out. if you need to spend X points in one tree to be able to invest in another is not forcing you to invest those points into the required tree. you choose wether or not to spend those points
    are you being coerced in any shape or form to spend those points? no
    has someone made threats towards you if you dont invest points where they tell you to? no

    *If*, where and when you invest you AA points is your choice and yours alone

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