RNG

Discussion in 'Items and Equipment' started by Neiloch, Mar 29, 2015.

  1. Enigma Active Member

    Charging for items on the merchant can easily be balanced and the TSO merchant was added like 4-6months or less into the tso expansion.
    Neiloch and Ambi like this.
  2. Breta Well-Known Member

    merchant was added in september with the miragul's raid zone that's 10 months later. I do agree balancing item prices pose no problem at all.
  3. Neiloch Well-Known Member

    Do I really need to roll out a gigantic list of simple concepts that often have to be spoken in defense or against? Simplicity doesn't excuse something from needing to be justified. I think you are confusing 'explanation' and 'justification.'

    If it is indeed simple, fine, but maybe that needs to be addressed.

    The problem with odds like this is people often think there is some sort of inherent chance of a curve where the more you lose the more likely it is you will eventually win. This isn't the case at all. For a 25% chance for example, each individual iteration is only a 25% chance to win. That's 1 in 4 but absolutely no guarantee after 4 iterations you will win, there is literally nothing stopping you from losing 10 times, 50 times or even 100 times. On a macro scale I'm sure it is hitting for close to 1 in 4 if its 25%, but when you zoom down to individual people, which is what we are dealing with here, it can be far from it. When you are dealing with a medium where getting the carrot on the stick is critical to entertainment and more generally customer retention, this is a very bad 'simple' system to depend on.

    Now explain to me why this system is good on its own merits. Why is it a good idea that when someone runs content 20 times for a specific, non-rare item they want and still not get it. Or can I get away with stealing with no need to justify it because its such a simple concept?

    All that's really being asked for is an upper limit, where loss can't be potentially infinite or just exceedingly high. A system where the RNG might actually be looked upon kindly because a person gets it earlier than the upper limit, where they got it in 8 runs instead of having to hit the limit of 15. I'm not really particular how its done, only that it is.

    I'm not here for a lively debate, i'm trying to get something done. Namely make the game more enjoyable for all those involved with the limited power I have to enact change at my disposal.

    And after the time it took to be put in people still ended up using it because the RNG system is horrendous. The fact it was needed at all and looked upon VERY kindly should raise some red flags.
  4. duckster Active Member

    Adding a merchant with a high amount of required amount of Ferrin for the rare items would easily solve the issue of RNG in heroic zones. It would not offset the longatitivy of the zones either, in fact it would probably force more grouping and make them more worthwhile for people with alts and bad RNG rolls.

    Whilst you are considering this(if at all), adding the raid dropped green adorns(no trade) would also be a feasible option since if you dont raid there is no new green adorns available.
  5. Crychtonn Active Member

    Alternate solution:

    Add the Physical Debuff ear from Dino EH to Perador the Mighty's loot table.

    Add the Firm Stance wrist from Pirate EH to Captain Krasnok's loot table.

    Add the Magical Debuff ear from Castle EH to Grethah the Frenzied's loot table.


    I've never understood why tier 3 jewelry was coming from Event Heroic's in the first place. This would be a good fix the same as when you added the War Essence to Perador's loot table. Doing that change didn't break the game and neither would this.
    Jrel and duckster like this.
  6. Ambi Member


    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:LU51 - Live on 3/31/09:
    Safe to assume that the merchant was in game before that date.
    March/2009 - Nov/2008 (TSO go-live) = 4 months != 10 months.
    duckster likes this.
  7. Breta Well-Known Member

    Update 53
    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Update:53
    "A mysterious new merchant has appeared in the Moors of Ykesha with a stash of powerful items"
    Your merchant was regular shard merchant. I remeber it fairly corretly as I came back around time WoE was released and the merchant was not yet in game.
  8. Ambi Member


    Now we're just debating semantics. The fact remains that there was a merchant in game early in that xpac that contained heroic drops that could be purchased with void shards. The GU 53 had more rare items, true, and just further negates Gninja's own argument:

  9. Breta Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry I just have to keep pursing this when I know I'm right. There was a regular merchant that sold armor T1,T2 armor sets, with WoE they added merchant witt T3 armor and jewelery and in September with release of Miragul's raid zones the merchant selling fabled heroic drops was introduced. Anyway this is just my thing but I do agree that 3-4 months after release of xpac is the right time to bring merchant selling rare heroic loot for those people with bad RNG like me.
    Jrel likes this.
  10. Ambi Member

    The merchant added for WOE was specific to Ward of Elements. It was only for trading in the specific patterns and currency dropped there and that merchant is in Lavastorm, not Moors. As with my earlier post referencing GU51, the Moors merchants had more than just armor, they had weapons as well as jewelry. They still do.
    I appreciate though that you empathize with my point; a token merchant could mitigate a lot of the issues this "simple" RNG format introduces.
  11. Neiloch Well-Known Member

    Now that I think about it the 'Grand Wrist of Auras' is better for raids when it drops in a heroic zone meanwhile Practiced procs have a greater net benefit for heroic groups in comparison when they drop on raids. You could make an argument for the Aura wrists defense aspects but rarely do heroic groups have to 'turtle up' especially compared to raids.

    Better itemization could solve a lot of problems as well but unfortunately it can be very subjective. Its also a constant process, needing to be re-evaluated every time items are released to live and thereafter. Having a system to establish a limit on 'drop failure' would be easier to manage and at least mitigate if not solve any problems when such itemization problems occur. Itemization would still need to be taken care of but this would be a very powerful and robust fail safe or safety net.
  12. Kham Active Member

    Pretty standard Gninja operation method here. Defend until its obvious that there is no real defense for being terrible then ignore.
  13. Mesmos New Member

    I'm sure GNinja and the gang all stopped watching this thread because "all we do is complain" but it's REALLY SIMPLE... you are about to lose what little player base you have left being loyal only to yourselves!!! I know... maybe you should charge us again for adventure packs too! Oh that's next week...
  14. Gninja Developer


    Just like the other thread... Friday afternoon got pretty busy. Regardless, we are still watching all these threads. But I do agree this thread has turned into "Its not the way we want it... So, we are going to keep saying you just don't understand." Thing is we do understand the complaints but we have also done all of this before and there are downsides both directions. We appreciate how passionate you guys are about this but at the end of the day we need to do what we feel is best for the game and keeping things a chase (Yes, with a luck factor) is a good thing and it adds to that feeling you get when you final get that "Ring of Readiness" you have been trying for for weeks/months/centuries. I understand it can be incredibly frustrating to not get those items but that is just the way it is.

    There is no "luck" stat, there is no super complex calculation working against certain characters that start with the letter 'N', it just is. Toward the end of the cycle we will likely put in different ways to get the rare loot in case people haven't gotten what they are looking for by then. Until then you will have to put the effort into getting the item the same way everyone else does. Its one of those things where you will have to decide for yourself if the upgrade from that item is worth the time investment for your class/situation.

    There are tons of items I wish I could get on my play character but I just haven't been lucky. Then again every once in a while I get a very cool drop and its awesome! I tend to equate it to opening up a pack of (baseball/basketball/football/magic/pokemon) cards or something. You are sure to get something every time but you also might get something super cool but its pretty random.

    We will keep watching this thread as time goes on. If you guys come up with something that is better than what we have and hasn't been done and is easy/worth the time investment on our end we will discuss it. But, we likely won't really discuss it further on these threads. Everyone just has a differing opinion and it is just a breeding ground for arguments.
    Mermut likes this.
  15. Atan Well-Known Member


    First off, I get the need for RNG, and I very much agree with your point of view on it. I enjoy the chase, really I do.

    Where the feces hits the rotary cooling device for me is the fact that nearly every box I open has a ~50% chance to contain a leather piece. When of 34 people on my raid force, I have one leather wearing player.

    While my force composition may be on the extreme side of little to no leather wearing players, I'm willing to bet almost none contain 25% of the classes on raid wearing leather.

    So for me personally, I've not seen a single piece of T2 plate gear, cause of just how much freaking worthless leather drops. I could have a fully geared out bruiser though if I chose to play it. So, while the RNG is a contributing factor, I don't think all the fault lays there.

    So part of the issue is RNG, and part of the issue is the design favoring playing some classes over others.
  16. Gninja Developer


    We know that happens and we agree it can suck. While we have been brainstorming on that we also feel that if every single time you open a box someone can use every single piece that comes out of the box then we might as well not drop loot and only drop a token everyone can use to get what they want from a merchant. With that sort of system a raid force is geared out so fast that it would be impossible to keep up with the content demands even with a very large team. It really is a double edge sword. At the same time we try very hard to not give you chests where no one can use anything in the box. After farming something for a while we realize this can happen no matter what we do. We are looking into a bunch of different options including giving the unwanted gear alternate uses. (Can't really talk about this yet, but stay tuned over the next few months.)
  17. Atan Well-Known Member

    Understood, and while just changing the weighting to 30/30/30/10 rather than 25/25/25/25 would make the overall hunt a bit less frustrating near term, it could easily shift again with any class balancing efforts.

    A longer term fix with alternate use might be a better answer, it might not, just depends on how much we would value that alternate.

    The current system where we know half of the armor that drops will be thrown away is a significant moral issue and I hate seeing people just 'give up' cause of it.
  18. Breta Well-Known Member

    Do you remember the days when armor sets were on smart loot? Happy days
  19. Gninja Developer


    This worked when we had a lot more class specific pieces. It doesnt work with armor multiple classes can use.
  20. Gninja Developer


    We tried doing that in Chains of Eternity and there were lots of complaints that leather was too hard to get. Like I said... Double edged sword.