Rise of Kunark announced; What that means to Berserkers?

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Dimglow, May 8, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-bambinu Guest

    On the same note one could easily tell u that tanking is for guards only. However that would be unfair as all see the berzerker class how they see it fit. After all a lot of time has been dedicated in order to arrive to the point u are all in. Finally it will be up to SOE to decide and while I do not see a shift in policy regarding the present state of affairs we all have the right to dream about how we want our zerker to function.
  2. ARCHIVED-seamus Guest

    [p]I was thinking about the buckler requirement as well. It is the only 3rd tier AA that requires the item for warriors, all the other AA lines do not require the item in the 3rd tier. Like many others my vision of the beserker is a fighter that uses a 2 hander or dual-wields. Lifting this restriction on the double attack would open things up for both warrior classes. [/p][p]Not sure what the numbers would be if the double attack AA was available to players using two handers or dual wielding. I'm gonna guess it would be a bit over-powered but that can be dealt with.[/p][p]Personally I've always disliked using a buckler and I'd love to see this kind of change in the KOS AA tree. This would probably make a lot of folks happy with regards to dps builds.[/p][p]The EOF AA tree is a whole other matter though, outside of the Cyclone line, its not a good tree. An appropriate re-evaluation of this tree could definitely be used to help the tanking side of the equation for zerkers.[/p][p] Just my 2 cents[/p]
  3. ARCHIVED-Dimglow Guest

    I don't think we'll ever see the buckler requirement lifted from double attack or any other part of the STA line solely because it would be instantaneously gamebreaking. What a lot of people don't realize is that a buckler TANK (not buckler DPS) has to pay 16 points to get back to equal defense to a tower, but gain offense. So you get tremendously enhanced offensive capability but your defensive abilities don't improve. Now if you're just down to double-attack in STA, and don't have the block, then yes it is arguably overpowered for pure DPS. Consider though how overpowered it would be with 2hs. It would put berserkers who are already parsing at 1600-2000 in raid situations up to 2000-2500, way into the top tier DPS. Similarly, it is complete and utter trash on DWs, since it only works on the primary hand from what I've seen. So ultimately, if they removed the restriction, we'd be put in the following situation: STA is required for everyone. Period. No penalties to offset the gain. 2h users do maybe 100-400 DPS at minimum. 1h users, using TOWER SHIELDS, now raid buff over 70% avoidance. If you let me equip a tower shield and get the bonuses from STA I would have over 35% uncontested avoidance, and over 70% total avoidance raid buffed easily. I might even push well over 75%. 20% block from tower. 4.5% block from STA line ~25% total block to start. I buff with a Dirge to 28% parry with adornments. 45-50% base avoidance. DW users, still crap. Gain 50-200 DPS max. In the end, the best fix to STA may be to simply swap the riposte/block with the double attack to raise the oppurtunity cost of the ability to prevent pure DPSers from getting it as easy, while instituting small improvements to the other DPS options, such as giving a bonus to DWs in INT or AGI and a bonus to 2hs in STR. Of course if they ever DID remove the buckler requirement, the option they're most likely to take is just this: Double Attack: Increases chance to double attack by 76%: If using 1h. Increase chance to double attack by 22%: If using 2h. Increases chance to double attack by 45%: If using DW.
  4. ARCHIVED-Nregnen Guest

    Thanks for the thoughtful response kemt. Ya i realize juggernaut does that, and that like they're saying on the other forums how we compare to the other fighter classes. I guess i failed to adequetly present what i was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say that we need to be 'fixed' or buffed up, but just that to make more distinct lines between those who want to tank and those who want to dps. That way if you're taking the tanking line, that you can't just turn around and dps on-the-fly. I'd just like to see with the kunark expansion and the 'loving' they're going to give to the AP trees is a more distinct variance between different berserker, or even warrior, trees. Give people an option to DW if they want(yes they can, but some sort of benefit to it), something more specific for 2h for those who want them, and maybe add something for those who want tower shields instead of bucklers. OR, add weapon specializations for those who want axes, or swords, or pikes, etc.... So, when i was saying a pronounced offensive ability, i guess what i was trying to say was make it so if you go one way, it's virtually impossible to do the other. Does that make sense and would that be fair? The only problem i see is like they're saying we'd be moving up on the parse, but you figure, so will all the other classes also with their AP changes, level changes, items etc...
  5. ARCHIVED-Ai yo Guest

    Hmmm ... what we really need is abit more def skill...
  6. ARCHIVED-Triste-Lune Guest

    uux the stone skin proc being a little like ToS would be insanely awfull. ToS is something you choose to trigger and only dmg the shield you choosed to use. if a single target stoneskin proc was to show up and it has the same drawback as ToS i dont think it would be worth turning that skill on imagine the proc rate with dirgue/templar and end naked midfight...
  7. ARCHIVED-uux Guest

    LOL. I didn't say to give it the same negative effect. Just said it could have one, like Tower of Stone has one. That would be awful, and probably is something SOE would do to us.
  8. ARCHIVED-seamus Guest

    Kemt@Venekor wrote:
    [p]Thanks for "figuring the numbers", this is what I kinda expected. I left out the fact that this would allow us to use a tower shield with double attack :D This would obviously buff both warriors wrt tanking.[/p][p]They've made it difficult to tweak this tree, which is a problem imo.[/p][p]For Berserkers there is no choice, (other than for rp), str and sta are cleary the way to go. Its the best tanking spec and pretty much the best dps spec. (There have been demonstrations of 2hander builds out dps'ing the buckler build but not by much and the build is not as good for tanking.) I think what many of us want is choice.[/p][p]Have a 2 hander centric line that beefs up parry and riposte, (or whatever defensive abilities), to allow a zerker to tank with a two hander. Same for dual wield. Give us choice so that customers can play the way they want to. Of course another problem is, this is the warrior tree, not the zerker tree. I'm dissappointed that they are not taking a more significant look at the KOS trees.[/p][p]Given what we know I think its safe to say there will be very minor tweaks to the tree, if any. After all the zerker is a fine tank class as it is, I just want more choice available.[/p][p]Of course this begs the question, what will the zerker epic be? I think we are all afraid that the people responsible for the epics will have no clue about how the classes are played, not just zerkers, and will design the epics in a 'vaccuum'.[/p]
  9. ARCHIVED-ZerkerDwarf Guest

    [p]The berserker's only job is TANKING. If we gain more offense abilities while reducing defensive skills, then we are absolutely USELESS.[/p][p]Assassins, brigants etc. with Adept 1 do more damage than a berserker fully mastered.[/p][p]Since we have less abilities on our own than a guardian to stay alive, we should have more and RELIABLE abilities to hold the aggro of many mobs.[/p][p]How it should be:[/p][p]Guardian = more stable at the cost of holding the mobs. [/p][p]Berserker = less stable but with the GUARANTEE (or very high chance) to hold the aggro of many mobs. And not only every three minutes but PERMANENTLY.[/p]
  10. ARCHIVED-Ai yo Guest

    [p]Its used to be zerker = more dps guardian = less dps.[/p][p]Now Guardian dps had been rised up but zerker still the same ability of def skill :([/p][p]Idea here is to changed EOF aa:[/p][p]Bulking tree/ Preservance tree : have to exchanged the 1st & 3rd ones Engulfing Rage & war cry to Mayhem & Suppressed Rage [/p][p]This would allow us more easy to chose from.....[/p]
  11. ARCHIVED-Bobofrootbeer Guest

    Personally theres only a few things I would like to see. First off change buckler reversal to guarded reversal and make it usable with any shield type. Alternately perhaps give us some ability similar to lunge reversal (swashy skill) that only works with dual wield weapons. In my mind i see a zerker dual wielding massive axes (a 2hander in each hand at that) but any ole weapon will do. Block with one weapon, extra dmg from the other, sounds good. You guys figure out teh dbl atk/dw adjustment that would have to come with it. And finally show the 2hander people some love. That qeynos claymore rocks. But why use it if we lose dps? When i made my zerker it was in the frame of mind that it was plate dps. Right now, with the buckler line, its darn good dps but were too restricted the way it stands.
  12. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    sorry to break the news to you but we are NOT plate DPS. We are tanks and with that being said i really wouldnt want to see us competing with scouts for DW... it throws item balance out of whack. Also there is a reason that the STA line requires the WORST shield type in the game... because its a strong AA line. If they allowed you to use any shield with it, it would just be overpowered. You want to duel weild 2 handers please go play diablo... but this is everquest we dont do that here.
  13. ARCHIVED-Bobofrootbeer Guest

    Well shoot Skel, bash my hopes and dreams why dont ya. Seriously, we are plate dps. If you dont parse over 2k when you arent tanking, youre doing something wrong my friend. I dont suggest we compete with scouts for dw. They could easily give us class specific weapons. NP there right. The comment about the shield line, you may be right there. It would be a bit overpowered. Nothing the dev cant fix by changing a few values tho. Dual wielding 2 handers isnt your thing? Do you not realize you would be godlike? Eh, again, maybe youre right but Ive been playing everquest since the beta days of EQ 1 and the last thing any PLAYER can tell me is "we dont do x here" Were in their world now remember? If the devs want us dw giant elm trees, itll happen. And dont get me wrong, Im not calliing you an idiot or anything like that. We just seem to have different ideas of what zerkers are. Cool beans.
  14. ARCHIVED-Necodemus Guest

    We are offensif tank, not def tank like guardian, that the difference between the 2 classes.
  15. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    Im just giving you a realistic idea of what berserkers are because it doesnt seem like you have a good grasp. We are not DPS, we can do DPS but that is not our primary role. We are tanks, we get hit, we wear plate, we are defensive, we keep agro and we beat stuff up from the front. We dont back stab, stealth, wiggle our fingers or anything else like that. Not to mention that in my guild 2k DPS barley makes it on the parse. Also no i dont want to be god like. Whats the point of playing a game where its not a challenge anymore? I mean have you even thought any of your ideas thought? How many berserkers or guards are typically on a raid? Two-Three at most and you want them to make DW weapons ONLY for the warrior class? Yes for cloging the loot table with more restricted items people cant use leading to less subscriptions and a declining game!
  16. ARCHIVED-Dimglow Guest

    We are not "Plate DPS." We are the highest damage fighter. Fighters are invariably designed with tanking in mind. Scouts are melee DPS. Berserkers do three things in a superior fashion to every other fighter. 1. DPS. We dominate AoE DPS, and we come pretty close to dominating single target DPS. Berserkers are the masters of auto-attack, and we can fight endlessly on little to no power. 2. Buff melee DPS. War Cry and Roar are huge buffs for buffing melee DPS. Nothing else comes close in fighter groups. Conversely we are the worst to put with pure casters. 3. AoE Threat and Control. Insolent Gibe? Gut Roar? Wall of Ferocity for AOE Snaring on an unprecedented level? Berserkers are kings of manipulating and controlling large encounters, especially when you're talking about large un-linked battles containing 5-6 individual un-grouped enemies. In exchange we are the weakest fighters in: 1. Accuracy. We have no half stances. We have no combat skills buffs. We don't even get the luxury of checking some of our skills against disruption like crusaders. Our DPS can be explosively high and yet piss-poor in the same encounter due to this. We are loose cannons. Lots of bang and no control. I don't think it is possible for a Berserker to raid-tank without a Warden in the MT group for the Instinct line. 2. Utility. Res? Evac? Self-invulns to certain attacks? Hah. Sorry, berserkers don't know anything fancy like that. We hit people and we get hit. The closest thing to utility we have is Gut Roar. And a third point, which can go under weaknesses or strengths, and something a lot of people don't realize about Berserker: Berserker is THE single-most equipment dependant class in the game. We rely on our auto-attack more than ANY other class due to open wounds and the nature of Berserk, meaning our weapons are tremendously important. We rely entirely on our armor for our defense, our stats, and our livelihood, unlike Guardians who have many abilities which allow them to absorb and redirect hits regardless of their equipment quality. Unlike Crusaders and Brawlers, we can't heal or perform any techniques to cure or extend our lives beyond 30 minute timers and items available to all classes. As a result we rely on our armor MORE than ANY other class. So what that means is that the equipment "multiplier" for a Berserker is huge. If you're a Berserker in crappy gear, you will be inordinately weak compared to other fighters. But if you're a Berserker in excellent gear, you may stand head and shoulders above other fighters. Hence raid-geared Berserkers become high tier DPS while staying competitive defensively. Come RoK Berserkers will likely seem weak for quite a while, until gearing up gets into full swing in the new tier. Of course, other changes will be snuck in, and many people perceive Berserkers as being overpowered (due to the performance of well geared Berserkers) so we may be taken down some pegs offensively, but it is unlikely because the only way to nerf berserkers would be to nerf auto-attack again, and it is unlikely they would do that after the ridiculous accuracy loss in EoF was enough of a hit.
  17. ARCHIVED-Montaigu Guest

    [p] [/p][p]Zerkers are NOT plate DPS! If you want to be a DPS class because you cant handle the pressure of raid tanking or dont know how to, then go play a DPS class (and then you can eat your popcorn and relax during raids) or go back to eq1 and play a worthless light tank dps class such are your zerker or ranger. But dont bring that mess here. I, myself, had enough experience playing a light tank in eq1 that I knew better this time around, so I picked Zerker knowing it was a warrior class.[/p][p]So stop trying to change the class with foolish notions of being a DPS class, cause your not and if your making the parse, which use to happen to me alot back in the day, it wasnt cause zerkers are so awesome, it was cause the actual DPS classes that I raided with suxd. Or your group setup in raids is bad. [/p][p]Then again seeing that you are one of those zerkers that think you are dps, your probably one of those zerkers that cries and moans till he gets all the dps buffs in raid/group, full well knowing it should go to the scouts in your group, so that you can make the parse. Which is pathetic.[/p][p]And you obviously dont raid much if you want more class specific loots like zerker DWs..really wtf! EOF is the worst with this class specific armor, always dropping the same stuff over and over. Just what we need, another class specific loot to drop over and over and over, that only one person or maybe two, in the entire raid can use.[/p]
  18. ARCHIVED-Necodemus Guest

    [p]Someone who DPS more than 75% of 24 raiding members is not a DPS?....[/p][p]For now Zerk are both tank and DPS. [/p]
  19. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    no, someone who's primary role is to tank is a tank. The same way that a swashy/brig can AA spec to tank but that doesnt make them tanks. Also the same way that a fury can put out 2k dps but they are still healers. Just because people can do something as a secondary doesnt mean thats what they are.
  20. ARCHIVED-Necodemus Guest

    [p]This is your vision.[/p][p]Some zerk want to tank, some like to DPS.[/p][p]Berzerker are mostly offensif light tank in everygame. EQ2 gave plate to zerks, why not. But people will still play them as their background is brutal, and means more to be a DPS tank than a def tank.[/p]

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