Rhoen Theer's Slain Gods...who are they?

Aneova@Kithicor wrote:

As far as I know, none of the novels or the PnP roleplaying games are considered to be canon.
That said, there are a few bits and pieces of the PnP games and books that have worked their way into the game as names in passing (ie Aataltaal) or as generally accepted references (ie racial ages).
EQ Live, EQ2, EQoA, Maps of Myrist, developer's roundtable discussions, developer's posts on forums, narrator dialogues, press releases and background for expansions and Game Updates may all be considered canon. Possibly the reference books and LoN might be considered canon, though the jury is still out on that.
Suprisingly, actual in-game books and dialogues by NPCs *may*, or *may not*, be considered canon, (depending on your point of view), as the things they say may be slanted or fabrications based on their NPC motives. One never knows if what the NPC is saying is correct or merely a rumor, an outright lie, a half-truth or a response based on partial knowledge of the subject. It's yet another issue that hasn't been definitely settled.
The problem, of course is that all of this lore was not written at the same time by the same individuals, and a fair amount of it is contradictory. This has led to some 'spirited' discussions here on this forum as to exactly what is being said and by whom and which version is correct.
Seemingly the developers want to keep this element of uncertainty as it allows them a degree of flexibility for new lore or retcons of older lore.
(/shrugs) [Quem deus vult perdere, dementat prius.]

here you go:http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4541907
Vhalen:
When EQoA was being developed, I kept in contact with their initial design staff to help create some cohesion between the two projects. At the time I was working on the Unified Timeline that we currently use in the EQII universe. There were portions of the lore that were created for EQoA that I planned on referencing in the EQII universe. You may see reference to some of these in EQII lore. However, like all other projects outside of EQII, do not consider their lore canon in our universe.
Being involved in various EQ projects in one way or another has allowed me to create a Unified Timeline. This timeline is comprised of major events portrayed in various EQ projects. Although the greater portion of the timeline notes EQ and EQII events, there are a few other events taken from a other projects. To craft such a timeline I had to make some changes in history so that everything fits where it needs to fit to tell the story of EQII. There are also events that could not fit within our universe so they were omitted. With the help of Jindrack and the rest of the design staff in EQII, this Unified Timeline is still growing. It will eventually map the uncharted depths of history and record the footsteps of our destiny.
Source: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/p...&topic_id=50061
Vhalar
What you find in game and how you interpret it will yield your own truths. That's one of the points of fantasy and roleplay and why there is ambiguity in lore in many places. You will see history and facts from the point of view of the character you play and the NPCs that talk to you (or don't). Some lore is indisputable because you can see it and interact with it in the game and some is entirely subjective and based on folklore, as it were. The atlas is a useful secondary source, but what you find in game should be your primary resource.
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I'm going to expand a bit on what I stated earlier. Many of you know that I often hesitate to call out specific references and sources because accuracy and sources have to be taken on a case by case basis. For example, if a player copies Live Event text on their board or web site, that's a really good source for an in-game event that isn't officially documented and disseminated by our team. If someone posts their perspective of a Live Event in a roleplay fashion, it's probably not a reliable source for facts, especially if that person only experienced an event from the point of view of their "faction." In the same way, a high elf in Felwithe may tout the humility and righteousness of her king, yet a storyline we publish may show King Tearis Thex in a different light. Here it's a matter of perspective and what you, as a player, identify with. A dwarf in Norrath may claim he's lived for 100,000 years and played poker with Brell Serilis. Does that mean it's true? No. If I said in this case that all in-game references are strictly "correct," then I'd be wrong. However, if someone checks the current year in EverQuest, they can determine that, as far as the year appears, the dwarf is pullin' yer leg. Whether he played poker with Brell is something only he knows.
This is what I mean by perspective and resources. Sometimes with research you can make some determinations by using several sources. Even that can be a slippery slope as I see some of you take information from within the game, supplement it with EQ RPG lore, Atlas lore, and then some EQII storyline. It's in these cases where it becomes difficult to define what's right and wrong as far as resources go and it's even more difficult for me to be able to step in and lay down the lore law. Sometimes all sources are correct as they use the same background, but sometimes the story has veered off into a different direction that separates our games. For most official documents and across our games, we generally stick to the same tenets, i.e. Rallos Zek is the god of War, not a cheese salesman. Of course, sometimes there are no answers, but you are free to create your own notions.

By your... "Team" really? You have a Team of individuals who do nothing but comb over the events ingame?? Normally I don't call folks on this to often but for crying out loud. I can see using perspective of different individuals but I'm not going to accept an individual or group of individuals who use their roleplaying to tout ingame gospel. Yes you can do the whole "but Vhalen said this" your previous quote denounces you're whole reply infact after that one little snip with the word atlas.

The atlas is a useful secondary source, but what you find in game should be your primary resource.

As far as the "Current Year in Norrath" it changes randomly, that's been validated many times over. The dev's themselves have hard enough time trying to keep the lore straight within the supposed Time Line.

As far as things go, have your adventures chronicle them. but don't try to feed them to me as lore.

Oh my, I think you must have misread! All of that text was from two developers not me or my 'team'
First one is vhalen second two are vhalar
I pasted the text as i knew the devs had already explained how we all should look on secondary sources of information

ratbastard wrote:

You post a lot of conjecture that can be directly refuted by very widely known landmarks in EQ2's Lore. When you write something that basically says "that whole beginning of Norrath story is all lies" it isn't going to sit well with me and probably a lot of other Lore junkies.
When your talking about grey areas, a little lore that points in the direction your thinking helps but it isn't really necessary. Grey areas are basically topics that don't really have much in the way of lore written about them, or the lore is obviously colored by the fictional author of the book. For instance the whole "Age of" book series was written by the Age of Sages from not only the Dragon point of view, but his own personal point of view and anything said in these is best taken with a grain of salt.
But things like the origin story of how Veehsan struck Norrath, populated it with dragons, and then the rest of the gods started planting races on Norrath? This is considered to be some of the most important Lore in the game with multiple refrences to the event. While we certainly don't understand everything that happened (or even existed at the time), we shouldn't try to make a theory that can't work with these landmark events.
Trying to say that Veeshan made a pact doesn't make any sense. She found Norrath and she claimed it. Period. The rest of the story is written and what gods were approached is also written. While that could change if a Developer started writing it into the game, they could also write in that the Nameless is a Pink Unicorn. Unless you have something to say the lore needs to be expanded, try not to conflict with well known events?

I will pay SC for that mount

Meirril wrote:

I tried to be nice last time, giving you the benefit of the doubt for reading comprehension.

Your original post about me 'For someone who wants to talk about lore' you said i need to read more. At that point you did not understand my post and thought I was saying elemental gods were involved in pacts. I wasn't saying that. that's just read fail on your part. My response asked how I could improve lines of communication in case the problem in comprehension was exacerbated from possible unclear communication on my part. You didnt offer anything about my communication on your next post.

From where I am sitting, you had provided zero relevent feedback or specifics. That is not an appropriate foundation to marginalize me. I would suggest either a) you refute my inconsistencies b) shut up and/or ignore my posts.

You haven't refuted me, you have only displayed you are human like us all, and sometimes have reading comprehension fail.

The closest to relevent feedback is from your next post, supposition that Veeshan didnt make a pact (again this is something i know is not in the lore). Obviously with 4 slain gods, not all major events are known to Norrathians. Your assertion she COULDN'T be part of a pact with them is as much conjecture as saying she was.

I welcome honest criticism and debunking. The only stipulation I have is providing a source/reference for refuting text. Alternate theories could have an explanation and your reasonings if no references exist.

What I see as the crux of our difference is not really about lore, its about forum use. It appears you want more structured format, with mostly official lore, and very little speculation. I can respect that, but thats not how I view forums purpose. I'm not suggesting my theories ARE cannon, just what makes the most sense for me. I'm not trying to pass my theories off as cannon either. It was my hope that others would consider my theories and shoot holes in it where it goes wrong. First you have to understand my theory though

I think a large part of the lore minigame is the fun of making connections. its intentionally not spelled out, and REQUIRES speculation.

I would hope you have enough intelligence to realize individual players' proposed timelines are all conjecture, trying to piece together history fragments and clues into a grand unifying timeline. Players research beyond simple lore memorization is speculation. In fact, the thesis of this individual thread "Rhoen Theer's Slains Gods...who are they?" is a question based on speculation that asks for more speculation. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 4 runes corresponding to slain deities is not definitive and cannonized lore.

IMO, the most valuable feedback includes 1) where post is dead wrong 2) how post may be wrong 3) how post may be right (and 4 if it exists: where post is proven by lore). It's very easy to search out how theories COULD conflict. For its usefulness, option 2 is given way too much time. That there is no lore Veeshan made pact is great, but referencing it still falls into category 2 (how post may be wrong) and not 1 (where post is dead wrong). Focusing exclusively on 2 shows you to be a negative nancy who isnt actually nailing anything down, just being a pessimistic downer. Additionally, you haven't provided supporting arguements why your conjecture is more valid for you and I should consider it (such as 'you like such-and-such theory for reasons x, y, z'). Do you think Veeshan not being part of any pacts to be cannon? cuz you present it like its fact. I see it as speculation. For me, for it to be 'fact' would need either A) complete history of Veeshan B) definitive statement by credible source on this particular point/subject or C) lore that created reasonably strong logical inconsistency for pact to have occured.

Whenever there is absence of info, I take that to be ambiguous. Only when explicitly stated that specific actions did not (or reasonably would not) occur do I take it as cannon. I still dont accept 'Veeshan never made any pacts' as cannon. So am i supposed to take your knockdown of my theories, and assume you are promoting theory only? Seems implausable, which means you are trying to pass mere theories of your own as cannon.

If you look at my initial reply, I looked for a possible scenario where you arent a total jackas s (valueable feedback category 3), such as you suggesting 4 slain gods are elemental, something that would partially contribute to your read fail.

Lastly, I would point out that you simultaneously discredit 'The Age of" book series which chronicles Veeshan depositing first brood, you also discuss impact of narrator pov, and reference Veeshan creation story having multiple sources. I do not see how history of fallen gods would be relevent from Sage of Ages perspective, in that they are dead and their races are likely dead (as well as comparing narrator voice from Necropolis of Lxanvon: clearly older voice than Age of Series voice). Yet you want to say its just logical if it wasnt included, it did not happen. I would only agree if voice chronicled 'an order of magnitude less relevent less significant' events while still omitting said event. A story that talks about what you had for breakfast and does not include detail you won the lotto strongly implies you didnt win the lotto that morning. But it does not imply you forgot to shave even though it was left out and is par for magnitude, and it definitely doesnt imply you went to work without putting car key into ignition and turning it (even though it may have happened) which keyturning is an order of magnitude less significant than having breakfast.

Voice needs to chronicle all greater magnitude, all even magnitude, and atleast 1 order lower magnitude to say omission is evidence of nonexistence. This is why I say complete history of veeshan would be required to say no pact occured. The fact fallen gods no longer exist and have left no lasting legacy nor race puts them at a pretty low order of magnitude in a creation story told by the sage of ages or even as backstory for eq1's age of turmoil starting point. The lack of story definition for the entire Age of Scale implies none of our sources were around, and they are all second-hand histories. I dont think we even have a capital city name (or any city name for that matter) for the 'supposed' first race (dragon) initial settlement on norrath, or even the name of 1 single dragon from the first brood. could that be because the xulous wiped out all the first ancients, so only the spirits of the ancients even knew the story?

Going forward, I will have no problem should SOE say no pact occured (or someone cites source already in existence). I do have a problem with infering specifics (posited as cannon) of what did or did not happen based on the very broad overview narrated sources we currently have. I find it silly to think Xul'Varien is killed (death of a god) receives no footnote by these other pantheon storylines-yet still happened-but the omission of a theoretical pact gods may have made by non-existent deities is taken as proof pact never existed.

If there was more lore about Veeshan and her goals, and what constitutes a pact and what rules are, we might be able to rule out certain behaviors she would reasonably do.

bottom line: need more defined storylines or more defined behavior rules to say its fact no pact existed. otherwise you are just saying its possible im wrong. not nailing anything down, and belittling me for putting forth a theory. a theory you havent provided reasonable proof is untenable.

You said my theory cant work with 'these landmark events'. Should be quick and easy to post why it cant work, but you still havent done it. If you can show its wrong (category 1) with inarguably objective data, or show how there could be no possible way for it to have occured (rule out any possible category 3 for my theory), I will gladly revise/trash my theory. Citing 1 source that says only dragons on norrath in Age of Scale is worthless, as Brell put some into the bowels of the earth, and its likely xulous were around, there is even an account saying behemoths were first. only dragons during that age is a 'false fact' (even besides having drakota, wurms, wyvern, drakes, and droag). additionally, you have a quote from mayong implying he was around. dragons being only race on norrath during age of scale is not uncontested inarguable fact, nor is it unadulterated pure lore...at least not yet. i doubt it ever will be, its too boring, simple and uneventful. Especially for an age that is implied to have covered a long duration (age with immortal dragons, with only 2 primary commandments 1: not kill dragons 2: not cross opposing dragon types in mating). we are supposed to believe its uneventful and/or short?

Try to avoid the mudslinging else you just get upset I know i had a few arguments with cusahorn over the years really interested in a theory and someone came along and just outright refused to listen (with his own perfectly legitimate reason). I know it can be hard to accept and upsetting. It's probably best to just respond with quotes to prove a point in then debate or just bite your tongue
Here's a picture of a cat and a rabbit to help

ratbastard wrote:

Quoted from Troodon311's "The(Updated) History of Norrath"
"The Creation Story:
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"It is said that outside of space and time an entity known only as the Nameless exists, and that this being created all that there is and was and will be. It is also written in ancient texts that from His mind sprang not only the universe and its countless suns and worlds, but also a myriad of sentient, powerful, yet finite creatures whom one such as a man, or elf, or dwarf, would call a god.
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In aeons past came one of these gods upon the world Norrath. Veeshan, Crystalline Dragon and ruler of the Plane of Sky, found this world pleasing and deposited her brood onto the frozen continent of Velious. With one swipe of her mighty claws, Veeshan opened several great wounds upon the surface of Norrath, staking her claim to this promising new world. Dragons then walked the land and flew the skies, powerful beings of great intellect, wisdom, and strength. Thus began the Age of Scale. In time the other gods noticed Veeshan's work, and being often petty and jealous beings, they too came upon Norrath, intent upon leaving their mark. Brell Serilis was first, and from his Plane of Underfoot, a dark realm of vast caves and endless tunnels, he quietly created a magical portal to a cavern deep in the belly of Norrath. Through this portal the Duke of Underfoot seeded the depths of Norrath with all manner of creatures. Brell then returned home, sealing his portal within a labyrinthine chamber of mystical Living Stone.
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And when the other gods came to Norrath, Brell Serilis approached each of them, and after some time convinced them to meet as one to discuss the fate of the world. The Great Mother Tunare, and Prexus, The Oceanlord were in attendance, and Rallos Zek, the warlord, was also there, yet in mistrust kept his distance. Brell, carefully avoiding all queries as to the origins of his information, told of Veeshan's discovery of the new and potentially powerful world in which she had deposited her brood. Words befit of the King of Thieves poured forth from Brell's lips and he proposed that they accept an alliance of sorts, to which all save Rallos Zek agreed, ignorant of the fact that Brell had already released some of his creations into the Underfoot of this new world. The planet that would be called Norrath was divvied up between these beings of power for the purpose of keeping the Wurmqueen in check. Each would create a race of beings to watch over Norrath and keep a vigilant eye on the schemes of Dragonkind. Brell claimed the bowels of the planet and created the Dwarves, stout and strong, deep beneath the mountains of Norrath. In the abysmal depths of the oceans Prexus left his children, the Kedge, hearty aquatic beings of great mental power and stamina. And on the surface of Norrath did Tunare create the Elves, creatures of limitless grace and beauty, and Rallos Zek the Giants, fierce and formidable beings, intent upon the defense of their lands. Thus began the Elder Age.
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It was inevitable that such energies involved in seeding planets with life would attract even more of the gods, and it was the Elves who drew the unwanted attention of Innoruuk, Prince of Hate. In a decrepit tower overlooking the dark decaying alleys of the Plane over which he ruled, Innoruuk waited, stoking the fire of his Hate until it was a raging inferno. He cursed his fellow gods for not including him in their pact and vowed to make them regret such disrespect. From the halls of the Elves' fair city, Takish-Hiz, the Prince of Hate snatched away the first Elven King and Queen. In his realm of pain and anger he slowly tore them apart, physically and mentally, over the course of three hundred years. He then gathered the quivering remnants of these beings of light and rebuilt them into his own dark sadistic image, a twisted mockery of Tunare's noble children. In depositing the Teir'Dal, as Innoruuk's Dark Elven creations would come to be called, back into the Underfoot of Norrath, the seeds for The Prince of Hate's final revenge were sown.
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Fizzlethorpe Bristlebane and Cazic-Thule came next to Norrath, and Brell met them, concocting a second pact with these latter gods, wishing another excuse to create more peoples into the world. Rallos Zek again watched from afar, determined to add to his creation as well, and this time Brell convinced the Warlord to join the pact, assuring him that it was indeed an appropriate time to fulfill his desires. Deep in the earth did Brell return to create the gnomes, resembling dwarves to some extent, yet more wiry and gnarled, consumed with tinkering with devices more so than their cousins. On the surface, away from Elves and Giants, Bristlebane made the Halflings, short and stubby folk, agile and with a propensity to meddle and even pilfer at times. Cazic-Thule, Lord of Fear, was drawn to the swamps and jungles of Norrath and there created the green skinned Trolls and reptilian Lizard Men. And Rallos Zek returned to the surface, pleased with his sanction to create even more peoples for his army. He made then the Ogres, massive, unmovable beings of questionable intelligence, and the Orcs, bred for battle and singled-minded in their desire for conquest."
I tried finding the origonal source for this information, which I have seen in-game in EQ1 but I haven't subscribed to that game for over 7 years and the lore resources out of game for EQ1 arn't nearly as good as material published in EQ2 which are archived in both the Athenium and EQ2i.

Ratbastard's ascertions: There was a God of Fire that was killed by Rohen Theer that was replaced by Fennin Ro after Brell's pact. Veeshan makes a pact before claiming Norrath, probably with some or all of the dead gods invovled.
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The ascertion that Veeshan became invovled in a pact counter to the lore above. Exactly why would Veeshan ask permission or seek other gods to help her claim an empty planet instead of just claiming it like in the creation story? It makes sense for Brell, since he doesn't want to be alone in opposing Veeshan.
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The rest of the ascertions fall into a grey area. There is no known lore to either suggest any of this, or deny it. While I find it highly unlikely if the devs ever wished to expand on the slain gods other than proving that Theer not only could kill a god, but did it is a possible theory they could follow. Though slaying an elemental diety is an extreme act. Rallos Zek lead an invasion of the Plane of Earth, and successfully captured the Rathe and executed them on Norrath. That was responsable for the creation of the Rathe Mountains. What it didn't do was actually kill them.
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Could Theer kill a elemental diety? Sure. The big question is why upset the current cosmology of Norrath to prove a point? We have stories of some gods being new. We herd stories of Rodcet Knife and Bertoxxulous both being relative newcommers. The Marr twins were unique amongst gods of influence because they were gods when they came to norrath but they didn't have a realm of influence until after they interacted with mortals. They discovered traits developed by mortals and embraced them as their own.
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Were the dead gods the prior dieties for these 4 portfolios? Who knows? Honestly I doubt that those dieties exist beyond a name and were probably created just for the raid. Or it could be the dev has an entire story of each that fits perfectly within Norrathian history and has chosen never to publish that information.
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I find its better to build on hints of what is there and to stick to as solid a footing as possible. While your ascertions are certainly possible, there is nothing to suggest any of it happened. Just as valid as a Pink Unicorn Nameless.
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(Edited to add space between paragraphs, formatting was unreadable)

ratbastard wrote:

The dragon city in EQ1 is Skyshrine. The dragons also constructed The Temple of Veeshan and Dragon Necropolis. Most dragons live in the Western Wastes, with no protection from the elements.
First Brood dragons in EQ1 that you can find (and kill) Zlandicar, Klandicar, Sontalak, Yelinak, Lendiniara, Harla Dar, Jen Sapara, and Hsraga. I'm probably missing a few but these were the ones I could look up easily on ZAM. Note that Yelinak is the same dragon that is currently resting and negotiating with the Coldain in EQ2.
It kinda makes a joke out of Mayong claiming to have seen the first brood. Mayong saw them, my EQ1 druid slew most of them! Heck, most everybody that had a mythical in EQ2 slew some of the first brood.

Meirril wrote:

If there is just one thing I would hope you would read and comprehend: I never said any of the slain gods were of the elemental order. My theory was based on the assumption that they were all of the influence order. It wasnt until your initial response to me had the idea even occured to me the possibility they were elemental.

I'm pretty sure Ive restated that in each post. How are you still stuck on this? I don't know how to debate if you are unable to know my base starting position after multipe efforts I make to communicate and correct your misapprehension.

I can understand seeing a wall of text and blowing it off: not reading it, but you should atleast admit responsibility for reading my initial post; a post from which you authored the idea they were elemental, not me. How many posts have you made while mischaracterizing and misunderstanding my theory?

ratbastard wrote:

So...your putting forth the idea that the "god of flame" is an influence level diety? That fire and flame arn't the same thing? In a way that makes sense, seeing that you have the ocean lord, the god of the underfoot, the sky matriarch, and the lord of growth...
Though there is a Lord of Flame, Sol Ro. If Fennin Ro decided to create his own children/family to fill in the lesser versions of his elemental self, I don't see why a previous version of the flame god wouldn't have the Ro name. Also this would place Sol Ro and his children in the "new" catagory if they were created after Norrath was populated. When talking about dieties, the Marr twins and a few others are refered to as "relatively new". Sol Ro and Druzil Ro arn't mentioned amongst them.
On the other hand if you want to fall into the camp that says Theer was banished before Norrath was ever populated, then all bets are off. I really dislike those timelines because it really falls outside of the scope of Everquest to talk about pre-Norrath events. Though, from a certain perspective it makes things much less complicated if some events took place before Norrath was populated. Meh. Unless we hear from lore books that they are chronocalizing events from before Norrath was discovered or why Theer and Anashti are interested in Norrath despite never having been there I think we need to try and fit everything into Norrath's history.
Which brings me back around to time travel. It does explain a lot. Heck, Mayong could of even created the Ydal during his stay in the Plane of Hate during the Cataclysm. It isn't like he wouldn't of had the opportunity to recover the Ewer and then make sure it gets planted for us to find.