Koko....I agree with you the main issue is overall encounter design and how poorly it was done and your reference of going from shamans warding everything in DoV to Druids/Channelers can heal everything now in ToV is pretty spot on. The main problem from a clerical perspective is that if the damage does not trigger reactives than the reactives are pretty much useless. This type of damage has been used in script design for some time however never with this much incoming damage and as far as I know never in such a combination as it is in Temple of Veeshan. Usually previous encounters would have 1 or 2 aspects of these types of damage thrown in (generally believed to give druids something to do). Clerics for years have constantly asked for this to be addressed only to fall on death ears...which is a shame because if it was correctly addressed years ago this would essentially be a non issue. As for Gin: If you seriously believe fixing reactives to you know react to incoming damage of any sort and you know trigger a reactive heal for their target would be encroaching on HoTs you clearly have no grasp of heal mechanics. Having our reactives react to incoming damage would be doing their damm job instead of just sitting there doing nothing. As for you being on raid council if you are giving the same level of feedback you have given us in this thread to the Dev's no wonder we are in the shape we are in.
Agreed. Reactives react to damage, HoTs tick, whether or not there is damage to heal. I fail to see how reactives doing what they're supposed to is, in any way, 'encroaching' on HoTs.
I mean am I being asked to replace all my clerics myself included with a second druid or channeler....cause that's what it's feeling like.
Because generating any kind of healing over a period of time constitutes a HoT. This is why shamans only cast their wards at the start of a fight and go AFK for the rest since otherwise they're encroaching on the druid's job.
@Mermut & Daalilama Reactives trigger on incoming hits. From a mechanic perspective, expanding 'hits' to include any form of incoming damage would be a mess. It would require a rework of all 'damage monitoring' skills (e.g. RO, PI, CF, etc.), stoneskins, limited trigger effects (e.g. prismatic chaos), most all proc mechanics... Even if it was possible to code/balance this suggestion, it would be incredibly taxing on the servers to perform said calculations.
Koko there is only 1 of 2 possible avenues the Dev's can take....either adjust the script damage type or adjust reactives...I hear what you are saying but basically it boils down to only those 2 approaches as fixes.
Indeed, and altering what constitutes as a damage 'hit' is problematic... limiting it to one choice. The script must change. Either the damage type from DoT to multiple 'hits' (different AEs) or lower the damage where it can be healed with the priest 'shared' group heal skill. I'd recommend the later, as this would incur less lag and benefits shaman.
If you guys don't understand how knowing the amount of ticks on a DOT (something timed) could be countered by MD (something with a set amount of triggers +\- left side prestige proc) is encroaching on HOT territory then I can't explain my opinion much more. If I have 12 reactives, and I know two waves hit in 5 seconds then I know for 5 seconds my reactives cover the DOT (barring the tank hits). It's pretty obvious the Devs at this point do not want that grey area encroached on. Divine Guidance would thus be a 30 second HoT with sustained damage. We're talking about sustained damage here, and the fix everyone is crying for WOULD IN FACT make us be able to calculate each wave, each tick of trigger, and be more like a timed heal. Koko said the exact same thing that I said and you agreed with him - encounter design overly using sustained damage when the devs know it doesn't work on reactives IS the bigger issue. You all say for (ten?) years you've been trying to get this "issue fixed" and don't you think after ten years of asking for the same mechanics change it's time to start asking for the specific fights that pose the biggest threat to our class to be altered. Some of the fights mentioned are NOT impossible for us to heal while maintaining DPS (a banchmark for me to know that the heals with my partner in heal crime are not impossible), while some of the very last fights in Wing 2 Temple ARE the fights that should be specifically addressed. If you all want to keep playing the same sad tune that you have been playing since the game launched fine, I support you in voicing the opinion that reactives SHOULD trigger off EVERY TYPE of incoming damage as stated on the heals themselves. I agree! But as a new player, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon when I can see why possibly after ten years the Devs have not changed it, and possibly consider it NOT to be an issue. And judging by the very FEW fights I sit on (there's only TWO FIGHTS OMG!), it probably isn't, it's more to do with specific encounters starting to overly use sustained damage and making what few workarounds we have as a class to heal through it impossible.
Gin the difference between what you stated and what Koko did is light years you equated what clerics were asking for to them becoming HoT's which they weren't and pretty poorly tbh. Koko stated simply and directly that the main issue with reactives is how the growing number of damage types are avoiding it and to fix the reactives to actually do what they are intended to do would be a major code fix (most players know this doesn't me we should not ask for it). Koko further stated that the main issue currently if we are not undertaking a major redesign of the code is a script damage change (easier code-wise than actually fixing reactives). Now while most of us agree with Koko that still doesn't discount the frustration with reactives since they were instituted and how much damage in game ignores them. This is a coding issue that has been around long time and tbh if was fixed long ago wouldn't be here now asking for it to be addressed. Finally, as for addressing scripts that address cleric issues and getting them fix tbh been down this road before and while again the easiest thing is to request the scripts are changes the best long term solution has always been to fix reactives and be done with it.
The mechanic is being used too much without a fix in sight, for that we can agree. I've stated that in several posts, everyone just wants to find something they disagree with and go into attack mode, it's the internet I'm used to it. The rest is wasted words, we will never see eye to eye and that's fine we're entitled to disagreement. The bottom line is specific fight changes have a better chance of success, and currently there are only a specific amount of fights that the sustained damage (mostly ones that use it in 2 or 3 variations at once) is rendering us useless, and for that matter shamans as well but to a lesser degree (wards still actually work even though underpowered) Keep up the good fight on reactives and the day it gets changed we can all share a shot of tequila and the game's woes will be fixed! (for us any way right? =P)
And on your off-the-cuff remarks about me being on the raid council, I'm doing everything I can to make sure future encounters do not use this mechanic when it's an unbalanced one for the three archetypes. I can't just post "Reactives are broken please fix" over and over and over, I would be ignored much like you all have been for 10 years. However, I've received a decisive response about encounters and hopefully that response can be shared sometime soon. In the meantime we're all on the same side, and would all love to see the same end result for a fix on our reactives! I apologize for trying to sum up ten years of silence on the reactive issue by equating the change to work on sustained damage turning into a heal over time, in trigger form. Again, there has to be a reason the Devs have not fixed this if you all are this passionate about it for ten years running.
I think the problem lies with the fact that there isn't much confidence that you understand the actual issues that need to be addressed and thus can't represent them adequately. As has been evidenced by some of your replies here, and elsewhere. I don't play a healer main anymore, unfortunately (since I love healing), but to be honest, in some ways that's probably not such a bad thing. Healers are quitting left and right, with good reason it seems.
My first post mentioned my parody on sitting out on fights we're useless on, however after the debate on Verdict \ dps being our biggest plus in fights reactives were broken I posted some great insight that you don't want to read, you'd rather continue the personal attacks: "I think the bigger issue is encounter design having sustained damage at every turn, and not realizing it pushes our jobs as healers out of the equation. Judging by the lack of response from Devs I don't think they're going to change that mechanic to work 24-7 on reactives. ----- "In the end, as I first said, I think the use of sustained damage in more than a few encounters is the larger issue, and perhaps looking into case by case changes for those handful would be a compromise, as well as not using sustained damage at every turn to make our lives as clerics hell."
Then there was a debate over my use of the word HoT when talking about an overall change to make reactives (correctly) work on sustained damage, after the continued attacks I posted another constructive suggestion that no one wanted to discuss: "I stated before and will again I think some end game specific fights should be fixed so we aren't excluded. I say this because the devs have refused to be decisive on total changes to our reactives and what they trigger on, so all I can do is talk about the two worst ones I've seen that are really making this ongoing issue to reactives shine brightly (or dimly because its so bad). Derig, Swiftclaw, etc still have the issue, but healing through them isnt a cluster*** and you can still put up over 2 million dps on derig while doing it, (wand auto FTL on swiftclaw, maybe 800k). You can't do that on the really horrible ones as a cleric, and for that I wonder if the SPECIFIC fights should be changed, or if we as an archetype need a huge makeover."
But again, I represent this thread horribly because of my suggestions on fixing encounters instead of crying for something that clearly after ten years isn't getting changed. If anyone here wants to discuss specific encounters like I've suggested maybe we should open a seperate thread so those encounters can be discussed. The sustained damage issue isn't even specific to clerics, its just worse because we don't even get a chance to use our main heal on them vs wards being underpowered for them. I still do not believe that just because a fight uses a DOT it means we're useless, I think the Devs have just gone too far in using multiple DOTs on fights or having the sustained damage be so large only a HoT can actually make the difference because wards and group heals are not cutting it.
Focus damage is not a bad thing, I consider it "good" on most fights. There should be something implemented that triggers reactives every so often. I don't think the "make it trigger on every tick" is what we need. Other than adds and/or an AoE that happens to trigger them, there is no support at all. Making most clerics/shamans suffer. Derrig is not so bad as a solo inquisitor with an add tank in the group I can bounce reactives off. Either they change the mechanics of our heals, which I really doubt will happen, or, mechanics of the 3-4 fights get looked at. Not so simple when some of these fights are fairly easy without their focus damage.
I used to love healing nasty focus damage fights, used to have to do everything completely different. 1-2 of these encounters make me want to slit my wrists though. This is about making clerics useful on some of this content, not about nerfing any of it or toning down the difficulty.
Other games manage to use aoe pulsing damage just fine without making it behave as a dot. Is it really to much to ask them to code the damage in a way that doesn't intentionally screw over a portion of their players? I hope not. But if it is maybe it's time to give those other games a second look. I'd prefer to play EQ2, but if they don't care enough to fix it I might be happier playing a game where the devs still keep up some semblance of caring about their players.
Just curious. To this point I still see no red names posting replies. You could at least tell us: "it's not you, it's me" or something. But to not answer at all ..well, lots of words to describe that.
A possible solution to the encounter would be: DoT damage is 50% of previous value (ballpark, some testing required) DoT now reduces the effectiveness of heals by 50% (again, ballpark, testing required) Increase the attack speed and lower the AA damage range of the encounter This would improve the effectiveness of non-druids significantly without changing mechanics. For example, Wards, by their nature, are not reduced by this type of healing debuff (and thus more useful) "Normal group heal" is more effective at mitigating DoT damage Reactives are considerably stronger at healing tanks
