Requests from a Master Weaponsmith

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Troubor, Mar 1, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-BigChiefJJ Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    I'm a ranger and I seldomly use my melee weapons but I gave up my T7 falbed weapons for RoK treasured/legendary weapons that i obtained from questing - shouldnt the RoK MC weapons at least be better than the RoK treasured. I took the RoK items over my T7 fabled for the added effects that were on them, not for the damage. I gave up my mismatched (KOS relic - EOF set) Fabled armor for the melodic chain (i didnt necesarrily need the mitigation as a scout - so the added CA damage was the deciding factor).
    If you want to make the T8 MC weapons desireable you will have to put effects on them like you have on the armor (+ spell damage, + CA, +heal). Put a few effects on them that boost double attack (ranged and melee), crits (heal, spell, melee, ranged), or damage (CA, Spell) and you will start makign people actually decide between legendary, MC and treasured. Until then I dont see a market for MC weapons in T8. PLEASE dont put any + power regin or + health regin - these are getting old.
  2. ARCHIVED-Sapphirius Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    Perhaps the special imbues should be tied into faction-related weapons specialization? There are some games where, at end game, crafters can branch into one specialization (but only one). They can craft all the normal recipes plus these particular special ones. it's an idea.
    However, I agree with you. First, the inconcsistencies must be fixed.
  3. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
    First - tier refers to the level range. T7 is 60-69. It is not KoS (which was release TWO years ago, not 3) and EoF tiers, they are the -same- level range, the same T7.

    Yes, there is a difference in KoS vs EoF raid drops because the EoF raid progression is -after- the KoS raid progression. There are also different states of raid progression in KoS and EoF. In KoS, Vymmens Lab (can't spell it, sorry) is not as difficult as DeathToll since they are in different places in the raid progression. Likewise, Freethinker's Hideout isn't as difficult as Emerald Halls. The gear you get in Vymmen's is not as good as stuff you can get from DeathToll, Freethinker's and especially not as good as Emerald Halls because the quality of the gear ALSO relates to the difficulty in obtaining it. Thus the PROGRESSION of the gear along with the progression of the difficulty.

    Comparisons of FABLED to MASTERCRAFTED are 100% pointless. Even if it's from Vymmen's Lab, released 2 years ago, it is still Fabled of T7. T8 Mastercrafted (and T8 treasured) shouldn't be drastically better than T7 Fabled, even from Vymmen's, solely because it's from raid targets in the previous level range (called tier for convenience). Fabled is INTENDED to be better than Mastercrafted even mastercrafted of the next level range (teir).

    I do, though, personally think T8 should be comparable to KoS lower difficulty raid obtained items (like stuff from Vymmen's and including relic which comes from items dropped by "trash" and not Named). It shouldn't be hands-down better, but offer a difference that gives a choice. It definately should not, though, be better than the harder to obtain raid loot such as from DeathToll and all of EoF. And most definately shouldn't be better than loot from the highest difficulty raid locations in EoF, Emerald Halls and the Throne Room of Tunare. Statements in the past by the devs regarding the relationship of the the "quality" levels (Handcrafted > Treasured > Mastercrafted > Legendary > Fabled) and about raid obtained loot should never be replaced by items "dug from the dirt" also follow in that same opinion.

    Compare items of the level 70 to 79 range: Treasured > Mastercrafted > Legendary > Fabled. Does the Mastercrafted reside in the niche between Treasured and Legendary while being a choice vs the lower level (70-75) Legendary? If so, then it is in the itemisation it should be. Mastercrafted should never be less in quality than Treasured of the same level range, especially of the "easier to obtain" treasured items of the same level range (and that is what happened in KoS/EoF).

    The "fix" I think Mastercrafted weapons should have, though, is a DIFFERENT effect on them vs the Legendary. Stats-wise they should be comparable to the lower half of the level range Legendary items but with effects that are not foung on those Legendary items. The differing effect would make them a -choice- and would go a long way to making them "viable".
  4. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:
    You would think the tier 8 MC would be better than the quested loot from RoK. However it's not...and thats a lot of the problem. Theres no progression for crafted weapons in the slightest, because theres no consistancy but also no need. The fact that a player does not 'need' to upgrade but every 10+ levels creates an issue, there for no one progress's to the next tier as quickly as they should.
    Idealy...each tier progression should be
    Handcrafted -> Treasured -> Mastercrafted -> Legendary -> Fabled
    However, once you get to Legendary of a say tier won't 'need' to upgrade until you get your tier 8 legendary. Especially since it's easily attainable from quest rewards and faction merchants. The natural inner-tier progression isn't there. I feel the only way to create this 'need' is to lower the viablity level of all items to kind of force players to upgrade every few levels. As in, having items/weapons/armor GREY out sooner than 14 levels.
    For example:
    T7 Fabled received at lvl 67 would grey out at lvl 73-74, thus requiring a player to upgrade to the next tier within 2 level's of getting into the next tier.
    T7 Legendary received at lvl 67 would grey out at lvl 71-73, thus requiring a player to upgrade to the next tier within 1 level of getting into the next tier.

    Making items grey out sooner will advance the progression and 'need' to upgrade rather than waiting for the next tier Legendary or next tier Fabled. Its not just always about adding affects or uping the stats to improve effectiveness, however creating consistancy and a need is.

    **edited to correctly state Legendary not Fabled in one of my examples**
  5. ARCHIVED-Sapphirius Guest

    Rijacki, to make it easier on me, I have always referred to KOS as T7-A and EOF as T7-B.
  6. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    Rijacki wrote:
  7. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    "For example:

    T7 Fabled received at lvl 67 would grey out at lvl 73-74, thus requiring a player to upgrade to the next tier within 2 level's of getting into the next tier.

    T7 Fabled received at lvl 67 would grey out at lvl 71-73, thus requiring a player to upgrade to the next tier within 1 level of getting into the next tier.

    Making items grey out sooner will advance the progression and 'need' to upgrade rather than waiting for the next tier Legendary or next tier Fabled. Its not just always about adding affects or uping the stats to improve effectiveness, however creating consistancy and a need is."

    This is Exactly what needs to happen, Though I dont think they should grey out as soon But its where im getting at.


    Lvl 68, Jade Inlaid is Green to grey to me at lvl 80

    Lvl 70, Chirat is Green to me at lvl 80

    Lvl 72, Incardine [I cannot control my vocabulary] sword is Green/Trailing Blue to Me at lvl 80

    Lvl 73, Battlement battalian Is Blue to me at lvl 80

    As well as BigChief you hit what im trying to say... That MC Bow pic i showed, I want that !!! I dont want an Incardine bow.. Not even a causal player wants to buy that !!!! Unrest has better before i even get to lvl 70 !!!!

    So why would a weapon smith Make a Incardine Bow right now ??? Decoration ???
  8. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
    FYI, Weaponsmiths don't make bows. WW do...
  9. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    Sorry but its still part of the weapons itemization end of it all. cause bows are still weapons. It makes a clear statement..

    Casue right now i cant find a Sword that is MC that anybody would ever use like they would use the DiZok bow period.. And that is bad.

    But in the end Screw this, You guys clearly don't seem to want to be fixed... The Carpenters Have the DiZok Bow to offer to sell Me and ill Buy it from them. Its better then My EoF legendary, and my KoS Fabled Bow..

    I have armorers offering me armor, Better then My EoF legendary (Dogmatic) in stats, and my KoS relic and I m Buying them..


    This is my challenge to you! You know what I bet Rashaak and Rijacki and any other who are sitting here Revocing positive change on this. To SELL Me One Weapon That is better then my EoF legendary or My KoS Fabled !!

    Every other trade can do it! I bet 100 Plat you Can't !!
  10. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    What honestly do you think we've been doing here? Sittin un our bum's with our thumbs in the hole?
    Before there can be even ANY talk of itemization between crafted and looted/quested gear, the Weapons FIRST need to be consitant in tier progression.
    Once that is done, then we can talk more about itemization between Crafted and Looted/Quested, changes that can be made to make them more viable within the tier. I will tell you, with the current mechanic of progression for Fabled dropped though...any comparison to Fabled is not going to fly.
  11. ARCHIVED-Jhanos Guest

    Sapphirius wrote:
    Tradeskills in general need a change in general in what materials they need. For me, the fact that dang near everything needs roots is crazy. I would like to see it spread out more, so that each group needs certains items so that there isn't as much bottlenecking. And like you point out, non rare loams are dirt cheap in comparison to ores.
  12. ARCHIVED-Ohiv Guest

    OK i will admit I am still very new to this game, but please explain to me HOW would making something go grey actually be a beniift to help the progression of weapons. From what i understand about a grey item is like for armor it will have usually less stats and less ac then something that is of the current tier. The item turning grey really has no effect the item still holds all of it's stats grey or not.
  13. ARCHIVED-Lodrelhai Guest

    Armor that goes grey still has all its raw stats (health, power, str, sta, agi, etc), but none of its mitigation or resists. Likewise, weapons that go grey still have their raw stats, but can't damage non-grey mobs worth anything. Admittedly, if my necro has the option of a grey weapon with better stats than a current one, he'd take the grey because he's not even trying to hit the mobs. That's what a tank pet is for. But you can be very sure that my dirge is going to drop a grey weapon like a hot potato.

    That said, I do NOT agree with the idea of weapons greying out faster being of help for one simple reason: all handcrafted weapons in each tier are level -0, and all mastercrafted are -2. By your suggestion, those weapons would grey out by level -5 and -7 or so, and tradeskillers would have no new weapons to offer in exchange. So those who can get fabled/legendary will get - and keep getting - fabled/legendary, while those who can't will get - and probably keep getting - treasured. No benefit, except for a guarantee that crafted weapons aren't available/useful to anyone for half a tier.

    Of course, a possible fix on this might be that all quest/dropped weapons be level-locked the same way crafted ones are. In other words, if at T6 handcrafted is level 50, then T6 Treasured should be 52, MC 54, Legendary 56, Fabled 58, the occasional Mystical 59. This kind of progression, however, would completely screw the casual player. And for those who think the casual player is carting around Legendary weapons and completely in MC, take it from one. We aren't. Most of my guild is casual players. A few of us have chars with Legendary weapons, and those were gifts from a friend of mine from a raiding guild who left EQ2. Mastercrafted is typically the best we see, and we don't have enough of it to completely kit out more than one or two chars. A forced progression of this type would leave us without any useful weapons for 2-3 levels each tier. Any bets how quickly we could get through those weaponless levels?
  14. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    Lodrelhai wrote:
    I'm Not for Weapons Greying out and being useless. Though the Lvl Locking is an idea.. I just think theres Needs to be abit more control on the Lvls a weapon has, and stats pertaining to this..

    Anyways I know I sound harsh a bit on the weapons. But Keep in Mind its been Years since this Trade as Meant a thing players in Game.. Our Guild which is a Very Large Guild Has no Weaponsmiths left period. As i Said my discussion in my previouse related thread was a bit off from this one..

    But none the less..

    As I agree and As others agree .. Weaponsmith Trade needs a Huge bone here, and a good pick me up.

    With RoK tradeskill Weapons being level locked at 72. These need to be weapons that people can consider, in order for them ever to buy..

    A person Who Levels 60-71 is going to go through.

    A. KoS Group Content.
    B. KoS Raid Content.
    C. EoF Group Content.

    And unless they skip on that, They are going to come out with a weapon better then the Lvl 72 (How many lvls higher then they are? ) Crafted weapon. Hence where weaponsmiths are exactly at right now. Its not Itemization between each other, Its defenitly not the "Looks" factor (KoS has some realy neat looking weapons) also fallen dynasty if people remember it.

    Unfortunetly As with all tradeskillers forget about people at lvl 80 useing them... or if to long.. and Right now As brought up.. Next Expansion comes and now people have a lvl 80 Fabled Group weapon Compared to a lvl 82 Crafted new one... Nobody is oging to go for a crafted one over the epic next expansion other then those who dont get epics "Right now maybe" So its an ongoing thing, that right now snowballs itself.

    Weaponsmiths need a realy strong delving into on the dev end overall.
  15. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Lodrelhai wrote:
    A forced progression will allow for higher percentage of players using a variety of weapons within a tier, which means a greater chance that at the low end of the tier, either a Handcrafted or Mastercrafted would 'need' to be purchased/used. Since so many weapons drop from quests and named mobs, its easy to obtain an upgrade. My suggestion would just keep players progressing every few levels (3-4 levels) rather than every 10-14 levels. However, having weapons, items greying out is more of a suggestion for the overall Itemization of the game rather than just crafting.
    Also, I am a casual gamer as well, but I have been able to obtain Fabled and Legendary gear very easily, especially when EoF came out, and now with can take your pick of Legendary, even on the solo end. So, you can't say that casual gamers will only ever see Mastercrafted as the best available, thats simply a non-truth. My average play time is from 5-10 hours per week, and if I can be decked out in Legendary/Fabled gear by lvl 70 anyone can.
    However, its not about casual vs hardcore here. It is simply this. Weaponsmiths do not have anything to offer aside from a temporary buff on Main Handed weapons after level 70, and NOTHING to offer between tier 6-8 in regards to actual weapons. Sure there is the chance a player will go with MC after tier 6, however that percentage is EXTREMELY low. Handcrafted after tier 3 is virtually non-existance, and the adorns don't sell for as much as it costs to make 'em.
    You hear some say, to make coin, you have to target your market, but if thats the case, a weaponsmith never has to level past 50, because the big market will be in the lower tiers. Sure consumables are good, but grinding levels to reach those consumables is ridiculous, no matter if you gain extra exp from writs or not. The best you can hope for is someone will buy your Mastercrafted weapons simply to Transmute or to offer up on Alters, with a very small percentage actually using them.
    Is greying out weapons quicker the answer? No...probably not, however its better than just sitting around on our bum's plucking petals off of flowers hoping one day the final petal is "They love me!" cause right's the opposite. :(
    Hopefully after consistancy with weapon tier progression is addressed, maybe some new ideas will come to light to make the actual product (Weapons) viable at higher levels. Like I said, consumables are nice...but the main product should always be making the actual Weapons not the consumable for the weapon...
  16. ARCHIVED-Boethius_Permafrost Guest

    I had hoped that we would be involved in a step of most people's epic weapon quests.

    I hoped we'd get some celestial essence recipes, and perhaps a permanent version of our temporary adornments, using celestial essence and fabled adornment components. We were left out, but we got some upgrades to our temporary (15 minute?) adornments, instead. Can they last ... a lot longer, please? They are still temporary.

    I would like to be able to "reforge" raid drops to realize their full potential. It wouldn't hurt if some of the raid drops required crafters to forge them. That implementation is already used for some items, just not weapons.

    Currently, I see myself as being able to make twink gear and substandard crafted items. Many of the previous posters have pointed out inconsistencies in the progression of our twink gear, making it harder to convince people to use us until they get their real weapons.

    The cost of adornments follows a progression which does not reflect their power, even remotely. Treasured is +12 slashing, legendary is +12 divine. To reflect the increase in cost, it has to go up some in damage, as well as change cost. This defect is apparent in some other artisan classes, but I won't go into detail as this is the weaponsmithing forum.

    Also, I feel that our weapon adornments are inferior to those from "secondary" tradeskills (but I could be wrong, as I don't parse). Nevertheless, I see the item add, literally, +12 slashing damage on my combat arts. There is no way that is even remotely useful. I don't pretend to understand the underlying combat system, but it needs to change from how it is now. Add to the weapon's base damage or something? And give us all the legendary/fabled weapon adornments from transmuters. I don't see a problem with taking recipes away from a "secondary" skill. :)
  17. ARCHIVED-Orba Guest

    One thing for weapons which would be cool would be set bonuses like with Shock and Awe from the Shard of Fear, it would certainly work as a faction recipe using a chromatic essense.
  18. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Just to show that the inconsistancy isn't with just one or two weapons, here is the Katar, I believe previously mentioned by Sapphirius. A Bruiser/Monk only weapon.

    1) Weapon type. From tier 4 to tier 6, this weapon is considered a Slashing weapon, at Tier 7 it moves to a Crushing Weapon, at Tier 8 a Piercing weapon.
    This one I can't even wrap my head around. This should always of been a Slashing weapon, however Piercing would of been acceptable as well, but Crushing? erm...yah...
    2) Tier. You should of noticed I do not have Tier 1 thru 3 of this item, because the recipes do not exisit. I have all recipes from Tier to tier 3 as well as the advanced recipes and I couldn't find a Katar in any of the books.
    3) Damage. From tier 4 to tier 6, theres a gradual consistant upgrade in damage. A 4-12 increase each tier, until tier 7. Tier 7 we jump up to 10-20 AND has tier 7 also has Slashing next to it. With such an increase in damage, one would think the damage rating would be higher. Tier 8, the damage increase drops to 5-15?
    4) Delay. From tier 4 to tier 6, the Delay is at 1.6, then at tier 7 and 8 goes to a 2.0 delay. Personally, I feel both were way to high, and should be at 1.4 to 1.2.
    5) Weight. Not a major issue, but still show's the inconsitancy from prior tiers to current. The weight jumps to 3.0 in tier 8 after being only 1.0 in the previous tiers. I suppose Incarnadine is just that much heavier of metal? /shrug
    6) Stats. As you see, the stats are all screwy as you go up in tier starting with Teir 4.
    Tier 4, gives +STR and very little + to STA and a bit of health. No power gain, but theres such a HUGE difference between STR and STA. STR is almost double what STA is. The + 6 to STA is lower than that of Tier 3 Mastercrafted? It should be + 14 STR, + 14 STA. And wheres the Power at?
    Tier 5, you loose the STA boost, but gain 3 points in STR. Gain power at the previous tier power boost, and recieve a 10 point increase in Health.
    Tier 6, no STA given, go up by 15 in health, and 20 in power?
    Tier 7, still no STA given, go up 10 in health, and LOOSE!!! power??? huh?
    Tier 8, get a HUGE jump in STR, you go from +23 to +65! Thats an addt'l 42 points of STR from Tier 7 to Tier 8, talk about a boost, we are talking about a 200% increase here! But wait! STA is back! w00t! Why did it go away in the first place? *scratch head*. Heres a funny lil thing. Gain 20 in health thats good! And Power is back!! /cheer But wait? The power is LESS than when at Tier 6 when power was last put on the weapon.

    I'm sure theres more, but those are the most obvious. If this doesn't show the inconsistant and sloppy approach to Weapons, continue on to my next post!
  19. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    The Karabela became fairly popular I think more for its look than anything else. With the removal of dual wield a lot of Scouts ended up using this Weapon.
    1) This one makes me laugh, because again, like the Katar previously posted. This also doesn't appear in Recipe books prior to Tier 4. Why?

    2) From tier 4 to tier 7 this is listed as a Rapier, but in Tier gets moved to a Sword? Honestly this should always of been a sword, but since there wasn't many Rapier selections, it probably got the Rapier flag to appease players.
    3) From tier 4 to tier 7 this is also a Piercing weapon, but in Tier 8 is a slashing weapon. Again because it was flagged as a Rapier in previous tiers, moving it to a sword but keeping piercing wouldn't of made much sense, huh?
    4) Delay. From tier 4 to tier 6 this weapon has a delay of 1.6, then tier 7 goes to 1.5 and in tier 8 jumps up HUGE! to 4.0? This type of weapon, is similiar to a Long Sword in length, the delay for all tiers should be 2.5 or 3.0., 4.0 is too slow for this weapon.
    5) This one is really funny! From tier 4 to tier 7 only Scouts, Berserker, and Guardian could use this weapon. In tier 8, Scouts, Berserker, Fury, Guardian, Paladin, Shadowknight, and Warden can use it? Why couldn't they use them before?
    6) Damage. From tier 4 to tier 6, it has a consistant upgrade of 4-12 damage increase. Tier 7 it drops to 3-10, and in Tier 8 a surprising increase of 46-137 increase! But only has a Damage rating of 67.9? It's a bit underpowered with that base damage don't ya think? I personally think this damage needs to be lowered in Tier 8, because this is more on par with a two handed weapon damage rather than a 1 handed.
    7) Stats. Yes yes...stats again are an issue. Go figure right? we go.
    Tier 4, AGI and INT are on par, but since this weapon is primarily for Scouts, Berserker and Gaurdians, why does it have INT on it? Granted INT is good for Scouts because it increases their Poison proc, but I believe most of the skills of Guardians and Berserkers are combat arts, not spells. Personally this should either be an AGI/STR item, or a AGI/STA item. Also power is not on par with health. You receive 5 less points in Power than in health.
    Tier 5, the stat increase of AGI and INT only increase by 1? but Health receives a 10 point increase and power receives a 15 point increase?
    Tier 6, AGI gets a 5 point boost, but INT only gets a 4 point boost? However Health and Power are consistant with a 10 point upgrade.
    Tier 7, AGI get a 3 point increase, but INT gets a 4 point increase? health and power get a 12 point increase.
    We all know that tier 8 weapons received a huge boost, so...I'll try to avoid dramatic text from here on out. :p
    Tier 8, AGI gets a 22 point increase, but INT jumps up by 42. Obviously this weapon is being geared towards a melee caster type such as Fury/Warden or Paladin/Shadowknight. :p
    Whats funny though, is Health increases by 38, but Power increases by 3? 3??? huh? *boggle*

    I really encourage more people to do this please. It's really a good way to show how inconsistant and sloppy Crafted Weapons have been done. Just pick a weapon and run with it! Or atleast take the screens and PM with the pic, and I'll point out the inconsistancies. :p
  20. ARCHIVED-Orba Guest

    With the Karabela I've always been happy with it being AGI/INT, these stats make it a great weapon for improving poisons or bards wanting to improve their spells. There are plenty of crafted weapons and drops with STR and STA that there really doesn't need to be another. Our best bet of getting good sales is to be able to make weapons that can cover all the different needs of different classes, and I have always felt that the karabela is a good example of that and something there should be more of. One of my characters is a shadowknight and as that I want to max my STR and INT, however about the only crafted weapon with those stats he can use is a scourge, which only exists in T6 and 7, and is STR/INT in T6 and AGI/INT in T7 if I remember.

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