Requests from a Master Weaponsmith

Blood iron ore weapons sounds like a really nifty idea! Just wish you could use the stuff someplace besides Deathfist Citadel.

And as a woodworker, count me in once again for Yes! Give Weaponsmiths back the thrown ammo! I don't even mind if you take it away from ww's entirely to do so! They had it all before anyway!

Also, crafted shuriken below T7 would be a lovely thing.

Troubor wrote:

I used to try. You can check my "threads started" for an example. Start a reasonable OP with a reasonable claim/request, have fellow weaponsmiths respond with total agreement, and see nothing happen. It's been more than 3 years of that now and nothing has changed. I'm just telling you the way things are. I hope that I'm wrong, I hope that you're right, I hope that weaponsmithing becomes meaningful.
But it won't.

Troubor wrote:

Actually you couldn't of known since the first thread I saw her redirect here was the one i locked ....... So realy not your fault to apologize on..................


"I used to try. You can check my "threads started" for an example. Start a reasonable OP with a reasonable claim/request, have fellow weaponsmiths respond with total agreement, and see nothing happen. It's been more than 3 years of that now and nothing has changed. I'm just telling you the way things are. I hope that I'm wrong, I hope that you're right, I hope that weaponsmithing becomes meaningful.

But it won't."

I agree with you... Though I thought it maybe a last try on this with my post.. If it turns out as it always has been turning out then bleh I wont care anymore is all...
and its always the same thing.. Patience, patience, patience... It may be a test on how many years one can wait ...
In the end its worth a good last try.. I was referred over to this thread . though this thread is mainly in a different direction in topic /shrug but I stated what I saw in the other. and thats that.

troodon wrote:

Past history with threads I've started and/or posted in regarding improvements to the weaponsmith class prompts me to agree with you on this (some threads which Domino was supposedly reading as well). However, I think the message has finally gotten through on several fronts from many weaponsmiths that we are not happy and things have declined long enough. I remain hopeful, though with many trepidations, that something will be done this time.
If anything, I want my other WS (the one I haven't respecced yet) to be able to turn a profit again. Sadly, as much as I hope and wish, that profit most likely won't be from making weapons. Before LU24, my WS made their money from ammo sales... something they can no longer make now until level 79.

While I'll keep my ideas updated on the first page, I would lilke to offer a structure to the discussion, also based on some comments I have read I believe it is important to distinguish between ...
- Timeline (short- and mid-/long-term changes)
- Particularity of Weaponsmithing (ts class-specific, affects other ts classes)

- Impact on Weaponsmithing (high / medium / low)

For example, will adding t3 throwing weapons be the turnaround of the weaponsmith class? I doubt it, I personally see this more of a "you started it with t8, now make it consistent across tiers), so while it is something that probably can be done short/mid-term and while it is particular to the weaponsmith (partially affecting woodworkers), the impact will be low (at least I can't see me selling thousands of carbonite throwing daggers)
The reason I write this and want to bring some structure to the discussion is besides making it a bit easier for Domino, I want to avoid that Domino and the devs come up with a few changes and we start ranting "Oh, why have you done this and not that" and so on, because we did not stress enough and prioritise the changes that would have a *significant* immediate impact and a long-term securing of the tradeskill.
Plus, please bear in mind that *if* EQ2 is extended to level 90 (or 100), we will have the next tragedy lined up as according to current pattern, we will see level 82 mc weapons that will have to compete with the level 80 epic weapons. If nothing changes here mid-/long-term then it will be the final nail in the coffin of this tradeskill. This is also tricky as it might affect balance between WS and the other classes.
I will update my ideas and suggestions on page 1 according to above criteria a little later today, perhaps new ideas can at least follow a similar pattern.
Cheers
Sha

Things have changed for weaponsmiths within the last three years - firstly and mostly for the worse, but recently there has been some small improvements (return of thrown ammo and new consumables).

Weponsmiths do have a fundamental problem.
Mastercrafted is supposed to come below legendary and fabled, making mastercrafted weapons third rate (or fourth with the mythical epics).
Since characters only need 1 or 2 weapons it is usually easier for them to fulfil their needs with legendary or better than, for example, filling all their armour slots to that level.
Weapons more exciting and make better quest rewards so there are a lot available that way. The major quest lines in each expansion have had weapons as their primary reward (only claymore has a shield as an alternative).

So long as mastercrafted weapons remain below legendary ones they are not going to be desirable products for most toons.

My level 50 dirge has 2 legendary weapons, one from an instance and one from an HQ.
My 55 SK has a tradable fabled weapon from a T5 raid.
My 62 Fury replaced a 52 MC weapon with a 60 treasured one and might get a 62 MC weapon.
My 64 Illusionist still uses his prismatic weapon.
My 72 Swashie has a level 70 fabled weapon.
My 75 Guard uses his claymore reward.

Revamping mastercrafted weapons to make sure they are better than any treasured ones of their level as was done for armour might help a little, though not as much as it did for armoursmiths.

Making sure that tradable legendary weaponss have a higher vendor price than the fuel cost of making an imbued mastercrafted weapon of that tier would help (excluding legendary items that aren't up to spec).

The main hope for weaponsmiths who want to make weapons would seem to be in ways to make weapons that are better than mastercrafted.
There are precedents for that, such as DFC.
A dev (not Domino) has said that he plans to review the armour.
That would be a good opportunity to add weapons.

Once that was done and see to be working for T4, it could be extended to other tiers, with variations.
Maybe for T5 the Secrets of the Weaponsmith book could be reactivated with new recipes.
The recipe book dropped on T5 raids and required a component that also only dropped on T5 raids (rubicite powder).
Maybe add the ability to get the books in a crafter only but difficult way (non-tradable version available from tradeskill faction if you have sufficient faction (10k?)). Since raid droppped components would be needed they could be called legendary or even fabled weapons, depending on how common the drop is made.

I decided to start going sword by sword for the Weaponsmith to try and show the inconsistancy that has been talked about.
I decided to start with the Short Sword because it's probably one of the more common weapons crafted for many different class's:


We all know the imbue doesn't affect anything with the weapon other than adding a proc affect.
As you first look at it, I'm sure a lot of you can see the incosistant stat increases, damage ratings, delays, even the spelling.

First issue:
Tier 1 - Tier 7. Everything is in lower case. To me, that means who ever put these names in, was sloppy and didn't care. Granted not a huge issue, but still could never understand what was so hard in capitalizing the first letter of each word?

Second issue:
Tier 1 - Tier 6 the delay is at 1.6, but at Tier 7 the delay drops to 1.2, and then Tier 8 up to 2.5. *boggle*

Third issue:
Stats do not progress evenly. Tier 1, stats are probably as they should for that level, as well as tier 2. Get into tier 3 though and you loose health and power??
Continue on to tier 4, you get health and power back, but stats are uneven. You get more STA than STR or AGI. Also, you get 5 power instead of 10.
Tier 5, everything 'evens' out again for STR STA AGI, however health only goes up 5 points, while power goes up 10?
Tier 6, stats go up by two, but power and health double..
Tier 7, you get a 7 point increast in STR STA AGI, but health and power go down by 7?????
Tier 8, STR and AGI go up by 15, but STA goes up by 25!! Also health and power receive a huge jump and increase by 49!
Fourth Issue:
Tier 7 (Xegonite) actually does LESS damage than Tier 6!! But has a higher damage rating???
Fifth Issue:
Weight is the same for all tiers except Tier 7, where it drops to 1.7. All the rest is 2.5.

Now all this may seem nit picky, but there is no real consistant 'progression' in the value and use of this weapon. There are many more that are like this, some worse, some not so bad. However, damage rating from tier 4 to tier 8 is off by about 5-10 points in each tier. The tier 8 damage rating is actually LOWER than that of Tier 7 legendary?? This should ATLEAST be equal to, if not greater than Tier 7 legendary.
The reason? Why would someone upgrade to the next tier if the previous tier is inherently better than whats being given out at the low end of the next tier up?
This is why the majority of players will not purchase or even think of buying the next tier crafted weapons after level 40. Even less players after level 50, and maybe 1 out of 100 will purchase a weapon after level 60.
Now, for tier 8, you would say that the damage rating is lower because of the huge jump in stats. I disagree, since the majority of TREASURED quested drops are close to the same in stats, however provide other benefits like + to melee crit, spell crit, or have a good proc on it. Not to mention, why would I trade out for a tier 8 mastercrafted when my legendary weapons from tier 7 do more damage, have a better damage rating, hit quicker, have a proc, with and adorn and provide a + to melee crit (and was a drop from a group instance not raid)?
There is simply no incentive to go the next tier up at all once you get a Legendary weapons. Even less incentive once you have Fabled, however that is to be expected.

One more gripe before I end today. Blood Ore
What really baffles me about this is, it's Ore. Ore is the primary component for both Weaponsmiths and Armorsmiths. However, Weaponsmiths do not have ANY recipes that can use this Ore??? Why?
What gets me even more adjetated is that TAILOR's!! (no disrepect Tailor peeps), but TAILOR's!!! get to use this ORE (hard metal) to make LEATHER Gi's???????????? This makes absolutely NO sense! Not only Gi's but other armor items as well. My question is...How in the frell did the TAILOR figure out how to take HARD METAL and turn it into Leather?
...You know what...I don't think I want to know... *points at all the gutter minds around him* keep it to yourselves please


Anyways...I'll be bringing more screens of inconsistant weapons as the days progress, and I encourage others to do the same. It's one thing to sit here and say this is wrong with this type of weapon, this is wrong with that weapon, ....but it's better to show it.

I would absolutely love to see the return of ammo to weaponsmiths. I see only two arguements that would come up against it.

1. Similar to Amana's saying, "No, don't take away our ammo. Ammo and totems are all WW have." Never mind that throwing ammo should never have been given to WW to begin with. It was only done to make sure both classes had the same amount of recipes.
2. Similar to one Calthine presented on the ROK beta TS boards stating that there shouldn't be two tradeskill classes making the same things. Granted there are already duplicate items made by multiple classes as it is (harvested/tradeskill charm items).

What I would love to see is the return to ammo the way it was before LU24. Let WW keep their arrows since those are the most commonly used, and return daggers, axes, hammers, and shurikens to WS. Return the ability to make all forms of ammo at all levels. The progression thing is silly when it's not consistent (as in my tailor can make lower level pouches for shurikens, but there are no craftable shurikens before T7).

Terron@Splitpaw wrote:

TBH this is another issue I have too.
The fact that a player does not 'need' to upgrade weapons or items for a minimum of 10 levels. One way to make it needful would be to change the way items GREY out. Instead of every 10-14 levels, items GREY out, items would grey out every 3-4 levels. It would create a continous need to upgrade items, especially weapons to ensure players were advancing into the next tier rather than staying with previous tier items due to the previous tier being inherently better than the new tier.

Sapphirius wrote:

Honestly...what would the point be in bringing back throwing weapons to Weaponsmiths?
Granted it would be nice. Granted they should never of been moved to WW in the first place, but what point would it serve now?
Domino addressed in BeTa that she did not REMOVE them from WW because she doesn't want to take recipes away. Many of us commented that there shouldn't be two TS class's making the same thing, however unless she decides to 'officialy' remove the recipes from one of the class's...it's not going to change, and Weaponsmith most likely will not get throwing weapons back other than for what they can make in tier 8.
What should be focused in on, is how to incorporate these whetstones to previous tiers and to highlight the inconsistancies with existing recipes and weapons currently in the game.

Rashaak wrote:

I agree.. Weapons smith not only have a very limited amount of slots... They have to compete against Epics, Heritages, Raid.. Which is a very staggering feat to even do... Its not like armor, where you could make like "Epic" Shoulders.. Armorers would still have 6 other slots to fullfill. And most classes only use one Weapon!

This is why in my other thread I was thinking on a redirection for the class. Cause Seriously Is the Weapons Salvagable at all ? I dont think so, not without haveing raiders harp on How Chirat is not as good as a Crafted once changed.. And that seriously needs to happen...

Unfortunetly with this thread.. I'm on a different mind set all togther.. Alot are speculating on Profit as a concern.. My View and Concern is the value of the class.. If the Class has value to it, Then the profit will come.. I don't believe this trade will survive "Happily" on Ammo, and Salves" I mean that kinda kills the "weaponsmith" title altogether..

I see rashaks comparison uptop.. The only thing i disagree on that stand point is .. Most the lower items atm are mis itemized, if we look at that and forget the raid (KoS) Items and the true weapons that are being used instead of crafted.. we are not going to get anywhere at all. They fix it to a nice pattern all they want, fact is, If its not a desirable over X KoS weapon, its not going to be used. EoF weapons are just harder to obtain and is why i don't believe crafted should be higher then them.. Plus theres not many at all.

But right now, I wouldnt use a crafted weapon over my KoS weapons for any reason at all.. And most are on that set route. But maybe one day a good amount of people will use a crafted weapon in helping them obtain thier epic.. That seems to be the least that can be done.

Istar@Mistmoore wrote:

Trying to compare KoS weapons (especially fabled) is not the way to go TBH. Fabled is at is, and should inherently be better because the itemization scale for those are done differently. However, you hit the nail on the head with the difference between an Armorer and a Weaponsmith. Even though Armorers don't have that many recipes, if a Mythical chestpiece were to be put in game, Armorer's still have 6 other slots to fill, sometimes 7 if they make a shield. Weaponsmiths have...1 to 2 weapons every 10 levels they can possibly offer.
However, you cannot and should not compare KoS raid loot to tier 7 Mastercrafted plane and simple they are not even on the same scale no matter how old the expansion is. If it's Itemization differences from KoS to EoF to RoK that you want to address, that needs to go into Items and Equipment forum. Unless you trying to say there should be Fablecrafted weapons?

Rashaak wrote:

So my question is, even with Crafted armor being generally better then KoS fabled, besides weaponsmiths ofcourse (See Pics in my post) Why whould anyone ever use a Crafted weapon Past lvl 62 ? IF a lvl 72 crafted item is still lower then KoS item that person got, it will never be used and you will still never have weapons that sell. So why make the weapons ?

A crafted Weapon in RoK lower then a Fabled weapon in KoS is essentially Xegonite weapon ... Why make another xegonite tier ?


Edit: Re link on post- http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=410270

In order for your crafted weapons to be used. They have to have value to them.. They will not be used if you can hop into labs, HOS, and kill green content for better and more suitable to them.. Its basically makeing your own nightmare again and again, because Weaponsmiths would never be fixed this way.. Ppl can just buy a sword of pain or jade inlaid axe on the broker by the time they even reach the lvl of crafted RoK.. We need to think clearly on this.

Am i going to Hop in to KOS to get a Fabled Helm while at RoK Lvl instead of buying MC crafted helm? HELL NO !!!!

Am i going to hop into KoS to get a fabled Weapon while at ROK Lvl instead of Buying MC crafted Weapon? HELL YES!!!!

See the difference ?




-- its just sad guys, The only thing that Links KoS to EoF in the player made tier system (and there was debates backin the channels when EoF came out) Is the Crafting nodes never changed.... the armor, the levels, between the Two are night and day. you cant take a xegonite weapon and expect to beat FTH!! You need to goto to labs and progress in order to get KOS Gear to do FTH ...

Eof Is its own seperate loot tier.. you cant bunch a fabled KoS item and Fabled EoF item into the same mix. as shown in the pics on that post.

No raider in their right mind is going to trade out their fabled gear for crafted even in the next tier. Majority of crafters know, they will never be able to compete with Fabled, unless they introduce Fablecrafted. Now Legendary on the other hand...thats a different story.
However...for what your trying to suggest...it is still not the way to go. Whether its KoS RAID loot, or EOF RAID loot. Fabled is fable for a reason, there should not be even one single comparison between Fabled of a previous tier and Mastercrafted of the next tier.
But honestly...I gave up my Fabled KoS weapons for some EoF legendary and was far easier to get too. Like I said..if it's Itemization between Expansions your trying to explain...thats a totally different subject but MC weapons/armor/items will NEVER compare to Fabled even if its the next tier up. However the next tier legendary should be comparable....

So you agree that it should remain like this:



Here is KoS, EoF, MC tiers

KoS Tier Relic Helm first
EoF Tier Class Helm Second
RoK MC Class Helm..

Would i choose The Relic over the MC helm ? No, its two tiers behind theres no reason, the stats are better on the MC.. Would I choose EoF tier Helm over MC.. Yes for tanking .. Its kinda of a draw though.

Here is weapons..



Ok first is

KoS Tier 2hander
Next is EOF Tierd 2hander
next two are 1 new 2hander and the launch 2hander of MC


I would first go with EoF, if didnt have that Ill Go with KoS tier ... I would go out of my way for other better weapons then the crafted two up there. cause theres more.

Your saying to keep this like it is, meaning no change.. this is not right, especially for a trade that has to value its slots.

No one in thier right mind is keeping KoS tier fabled over RoK MC armor right now .. why is this hard to get across about weapons ?


"But honestly...I gave up my Fabled KoS weapons for some EoF legendary and was far easier to get too. Like I said..if it's Itemization between Expansions your trying to explain...thats a totally different subject but MC weapons/armor/items will NEVER compare to Fabled even if its the next tier up. However the next tier legendary should be comparable...."
Just for me to understand, You had a KoS tier Fabled Weapon, Which traded it for a EoF Legendary...

Keep in mind. Devs dont share this T7 mesh we created.
A KoS Fabled Weapon is Not going to better then or equal to a EoF Legendary, EoF legendary is a higher progression weapon..
In the case of 60-70 You should Go MC xegonite > KoS lengendary > KoS Fabled > EoF Legendary > EoF fabled ..

Right now other tradeskills are at:

MC xegonite > KoS lengendary > KoS Fabled > EoF Legendary > EoF fabled =/ MC Incardine > ROK Legendary > RoK Fabled.

Whate weapons look like right now:

MC xegonite > MC Incardine > KoS lengendary > KoS Fabled > EoF Legendary > EoF fabled > RoK legendary > RoK Fabled.

I have already stated many times that I don't foresee WS ever getting ammo back. I guess I should have repeated myself just one more time in my post about ammo, but I didn't see the point. I know that WS will never get low-tier ammo back. It is something I would love to see, but I know it will never happen. Better? Why would I love to see it back? What could I hope to accomplish by it? Well, it would provide a consumable that is actually in demand, unlike those whetstones that can't be given away.
Also, focusing on end-game MC weapons seems to be a bit off as people in the end tier generally tend to prefer their previous tier fabled over current tier MC, which is as it should be.
I truly do feel that lower tier weapons and niche weapons are where WS are going to see their most sales. T8 MC weapons will never be able to compete with T8 fabled and legendary weapons, as it should be. However, people have alts that they'd rather outfit in MC because it's easier and guaranteed. Those alts are where we could see the most profitability in actual weapons sales.
What's more is that more and more people are starting to branch out into different specs. Crafting weapons specifically for those niches will provide them with things better suited to their class and spec, things they often can't find in the game from drops. Hence, niche weapons have big potential for WS. I'd actually recommend starting a post on the different class forums asking players what they'd like to see on their weapons.
Adding special effects to weapons instead of jsut stats will help as well. TD quested armor gives regen, +dmg, etc. These are things that could increase the value of MC weapons considerably.
And of course, what we are evidentally trying to pound into dev heads, consistensy. The delay, damage rating, and stats on weapons from tier to tier are very inconcsistent, and that should be fixed.

Look...get off the fabled kick.
If your still wearing KoS fabled gear...thats your own fault. It is no secret that the EoF fabled and legendary set gear is far better than the Relic gear from KoS. Its the natural progression for RAID gear! Crafted gear should not EVEN be in the same category.
So if your upgrading your KoS fabled to MC in tier 8, then your a poor raider IMO, because you should atleast have half a set of Fabled EoF gear and not even be considering MC at all.

Rashaak wrote:

I agree if you have an EOF fabled weapon.. Chirat you do not need an MC RoK weapon. but if you have an EoF Legendary weapon it should be questionable on a MC Crafted weapon, if you have a KoS Fabled Weapon, the MC crated weapon should be a good choice to use over it.

Like how everything else is.

Like this: Which a thank you to the devs on:




Left is KoS fabled (Labs)
Center EoF Legendary (Unrest)
Right is Rok MC.

*edit better comparison

Sapphirius wrote:

While adding 'special effect' would be nice, the first thing to do is create consistensy between the weapon tiers for crafted weapons. As for special effects, I believe a change to the imbue would be an effective way to add other effects. Since the majority of adornments have a proc available to it...then the Imbue Material can change to give additional variety.
For example:
Imbue Material (any tier) Has its own 'node' type that is harvestable and may appear similiar to how a shiney would pop up. The names would be change, and be more 'elemental', such as Fiery Material (Imbue that adds Fire damage, or lowers heat resists), found in areas that are volcanic or extremely warm climates. Watery/Chilled Material (Imbue that adds either Cold damage, or lowers cold resist), found in areas like the sea or in extremely cold climates. Earthly Material (Imbue that adds a + damage or lowers mit), found near mountains or rocky areas...so on and so forth. Herbal Material (Imbue that adds a + to disease/poison resist, or lowers disease/poison resist), found in Jungle type areas.
Maybe other material that can be found on certain mob types, like Bloody Material, found on Vampires, Werewolves, Bats (gives a Life tap proc or add's + damage to Vampire, Werewolf and Bats)....
/shrug

However...I still think more emphasis should be placed on existing weapons and the inconsistancy between the tiers.