Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Troubor, Mar 1, 2008.
Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:
Which is my point, its the same as people who use weapons for the "neat" graphic, despite the fact that they could be using a better dps weapon.
This could be a stealth nerf, but because it looks and sounds cools, the herd may not understand they were better off with just the current DD proc.
I actually use these weapons in addition to selling them.
You need to take a step back for a moment and actually read and try to comprehend. Two people are telling you the same thing. However...you in your one months of infinint wisdom seem to have the entire game and its mechanics figured out. So go ahead with your bad self, but until you actually know how these weapons can affect you in-game....all this arguing you've done is simple a knee jerk reaction to a change that will affect the way you play your toon....
Adapt...overcome...or be assimiliated!
The 1% of the time that we are coming up with is the guesstimate of times where the mob will be suddenly let loose on your group, when your taunts, big attacks, and rescue will all be down, and the offending DPS-er has no deaggro abilities up. This one in 100 pulls would probably end up with the DPs dying, then aggro snapping back to you beacuse you did everything you could, including getting back in front of the mob to make sure you didnt accidentally proc de-hate, and the dps being rezzed.
The other 99% of the time when the tank has aggro, the dps is behind the mob, and things are going well, the procs are going to allow each dps-er to throw about 30-60 dps more (30 for one weapon proccing, 60 for two). Thats all the deaggro does, negates 30-60 dps over one minute. Explain to me howthat is terribly signifigant in T8?
See, the thing is you believe 'the herd' will be better off without this change. I think 'the herd' will not even notice the change, definately after a week's time.
And my dirge and my guardian, my templar, my brigand, my inquisitor, my bruiser, and my warden all used mastercrafted weapons growing up. My dirge used them before imbues even existed, actually. So do not think I have no experience with using the weapons.
Also, you keep calling your bruiser a tank, which they are, techincally, being fighters and having taunts and all that. But unless you rise through the ranks with like-minded healers & group/guildmates, get into a top end raiding guild to keep your gear tip top, you will find that you are more and more likely to be delegated to a DPS role. Not within group situations per-se, but definately with raiding and top end content. Then again, if you attain those heights, a little thing like mastercrafted weapons will not be a concern anymore, now will they?
a) so you've argued for two pages because you think it "could be" a stealth nerf, because of a small chance of proccing -900 threat when a tank loses aggro... and you're willfully ignoring the fact that before the tank lost aggro he was gaining +900 per proc, and all the people trying to steal it from him were getting that -900 benefit. You did realize there was a baby in that bathwater, yes?
b) "the herd"? People in this thread have showed you tactics, and they've showed you math. You've stuck to your story without really refuting any arguments (proof by repetition isn't generally considered a quality debating style.) So I think we're "the pack". I don't see a herd anywhere.
c) well, if we're going for argument-by-authority, I also both use and sell weapons. And I have crafters at level 80/400 skill in all 9 trades and 2 subtrades. And I have two accounts comprising 19 adventurers, including a T8 tank, T8 mage, T8 healer, and T7 scout, and 5 others in the 40s or 50s. And I've played since a few weeks after the game was released. And I have a minor in mathematics on top of my electrical engineering degree, so I'm not too bad with math and statistics. (And does any of that mean my argument is necessarily right? No, it doesn't. So don't try argument by authority. Stick to facts.)
And I'll give you one point. This proc change is a nerf. If you're a non-pet-class solo'er... because the proc rate is 0.2/s lower while the damage is the same. Objectively true, just as it's objectively true that the change is good for everyone else if they can handle the tactics (which they'll have to learn by T7, anyway, if they don't want AEs wiping groups.)
I'll say outright that my dirge will be using at least one, if not two, MC weapons (as soon as her friend the WS gets to T8 ). If only one, it will be the aggro/deaggro proc. If two, it'll be one of each. I spend the vast majority of my time behind the mob, and anything I can do that'll keep him from turning around is to my benefit. Even when grouped with one of our monks (who have an uncanny talent for turning the mob just as I'm about to do a backstab) the mob is facing away from me for all but 2 seconds of the fight. Odds of the proc going off in that 2 seconds vs the other 28 (seeing as Eagle Spin is a 30-second recast) - 1 in 15, or 6.667% chance. Which means 14 out of 15 times that I am grouping with one of those monks, it is proc'ing properly. Plus all the times I'm grouping with my friend's berserker, or my friend's SK, or my other friend's guardian...
Will there be times it goes off at just the wrong moment? Of course. Might there even be a time it goes off at such a wrong moment that I steal aggro and the monk can't steal it back before I'm dead? Certainly a possibility. Is that level of risk worth the number of times it will go right? As far as I'm concerned it is. It's one of those situations where the little bit of help is welcome, and the little bit of hurt minimal.
With the asking where people got their numbers, it sounds like you're like me - you want figures. Prrasha on the previous page already posted the equation to figure out max proc rate, so I went digging for damage numbers:
Eagle Spin (to turn the mob) does an undisclosed amount of melee damage. Turns the mob for 1.8 seconds.
Gut Punch (lvl 73 back attack) does 581-1587 damage at app 2 - average 1084. Takes .5 seconds to cast.
Hammer (lvl 71, light damage) does 220-520 damage at app 2 - average 370. Takes .5 seconds to cast.
Steel Fist (lvl 69 knockdown attack) does 176-530 damage at adept 1 (lower numbers not available) - average 353. Takes .5 seconds to cast.
That's average 1807 dmg in the 1.5 seconds, plus whatever dmg Eagle Spin itself does, plus an auto-attack that will likely land before the 1.8 sec duration of Eagle Spin is done, plus adjustment for upgrades, plus str modifiers... and Hammer/Steel Fist were the two lowest-damage attacks for the level I could find. So I'd say 1800 damage with the mob turned is a modest estimate overall.
editted to credit equation properly
Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:
Its not my fault that sony gimped bruisers with reguards to raids (SK's too), I play toons because I find them fun, if I get to 80 and find that because of my class I am excluded from end game content I will either re-roll or just quit.
Most likely quit. As I feel that every MMO should allow players to pick a class that appeals to them and that class should be relatively compentent in all aspects of game play (solo, raid, grp). Now granted some will be better at certain aspects then others, but the point is that the difference should not be so prounced that entire classes are excluded from raids (bruisers and Sk's). Certain classes should excel at certain areas, but never by such a huge margin that entire classes are exluded from end game content.
If that was the case then the class decription should state so. And if we are not tanks, then why did we get taunts at level 1?
Don't compare EQ1 to this game..it really isn't the same on any level. Same story line, same type of class's, but a completely and totally different game. This game after 4 years of updates and changes, tells you a lot more than it did when the game first launched....
oh...and I hereby revoke your privelages of debate! You are now outnumbered 3 to 1. Do I need to do the math for you there too?
Give the weapons a chance, because most likely you won't notice any major change after about a week or two...
Well the "truth" is that all these number that everyone has been throwing out are purely speculation as every group will be different and operate in very different circumstances.
No one can defineatively say thing really because its not a static environment.
I just know that a weapon with a -900 hate proc could a problem when tanking and a weapon with a +900 aggro proc could be a problem when not, irreguardless of where the mob is supposed to be standing.
I only really made mention of this at all to let you know that by the time you get to this stage of the game, you will be wanting de-aggros as much as aggro abilities. You just will not be called on to tank in Pickup groups as often, they will want Plate tanks. At that time you may see the benefit in having MC weapons.
The rest of what you are saying may have merit, but is way off topic here. Perhaps the endgame bruisers can help you in the forums
Fair enough, since the 3 of you have seemed to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, I will all a truce and wait and see what the procs are like.
But dont think for a second that if they are fubared I wont be back here telling you so.
I'm sure if it's fubar it'll be adjusted prior to going live.
We have all been using the same sampling of numbers to show you how insignifigant a number like 900 threat over 30 seconds is when at least 4 of your 6 man group is throwing out more damage than that every second
By no one being effectively able to say anything, you realize that includes you, right? Right?
How do you know that 900 hate +/- will be a problem tanking? Have you been in groups throwing out 8000+ dps? Do you have ACT installed and understand it?
Aggro is going to bounce. Hell, a lucky hit by my dirge (a class on the low end of the DPS spectrum) can yank me aggro from a paladin who has an amended warlock (a high aggro combination). Now, I dont keep aggro for long, usually they don't even get to hit me once, because if I see it yank I hit cheap shot or my round bash to stun it, and then deaggro. If it does get to hit me, I consider it a 2-4k ward for the pally
Lol, no comment.
Quoting myself to get back on topic and hoping the debate of aggro/deaggro stays quelled for now...
Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:
I can definitively say that a -900 hate proc on a mob when you are trying to get aggro is not good. Just like a +900 hate proc is bad when you dont want it.
I guess I am just risk averse, I dont want any procs on weapons I may use that might be conterproductive to what my particular goals maybee at that time.
*bonks Woodlark and Evilgamer*
shush! Agree to disagree and wait for it to go to Test!
and if you post to quote this, that'll mean your trying to have the last word, which will mean that I have to take other measures... *smacks fists together* /taunt
The "truth" is nothing of the sort. It's called analyzing the worst case. Engineers do it for a living. And the worst static case will be worse than the worst dynamic one, by definition, since the dynamic one has nowhere to go but up.
I showed above that the maximum (long term over-time) hate you will get out of one of these things is 102 hate per second. So the worst case for the tank is losing effectively 204 hate per second to someone else (-102 tank, +102 DPSer).
Consider what this requires. Capped haste for both, capped spell/combat-art/recovery increase for both. No misses, no stuns, no interrupts, perfect timing. Tank behind the mob all the time, DPSer in front all the time. DPSer, having gained aggro, continues to go all out rather than trying to shed aggro. The only time this can possibly happen is fighting very very grey mobs, where it doesn't matter who's tanking. Nobody gets 100% melee hit rates from the front against mobs that are green or better.
Now that we've established the silliest possible worst case, is it meaningful? When good DPSers of that level can do 2000+ DPS in normal groups (they'll be 4000+ in the silly circumstances I set up, if not more), 204 is not significant. The DPS will be spread across a range wider than 204 DPS on a fight-to-fight basis. The hate proc will be swamped by other procs and critical hits and be, in the engineering sense of the term, lost in the noise.
Lodrelhai above gave you the worst-case 1.8-second spam of bruiser damage (picking the lowest-DPS abilities, at apprentice 2 level). DPS still swamped out the proc by 3-to-1 (the damage of the proc, the Eagle Spin, and the melee autoattack were not included... proc will be 300-ish, Eagle Spin at least 100, and autoattack another 300-ish, based on Domino's post and my T8 tank's parses)... for 2500+ damage if you use the stupidest possible attacks against the back of the mob... with app2 arts and a STR and INT score around 20.
So short-term and long-term, the proc is not game-breaking in the worst possible cases. Why would it be game-breaking in any situation where people play better than that?
Will there be a corner case where this 900 hate might affect a single combat? Yes. But a proc of 1 hate could have the same corner case. At some point, you have to realize that it's an unlikely enough event that it doesn't matter. My house isn't built to withstand an F5 tornado, but I'm not moving to a concrete bunker because of that fact... I'll just assume that an F5 tornado rolling over it is an unlikely enough occurence, and I'll hide in the basement if it does happen. There's well-though-out risk-aversion, and then there's clinical paranoia.
And if you want some non-number logic, try this one. You're arguing a situation where you lose aggro, then the deaggro proc is the difference between getting it back or not. In that situation, having a procced positive aggro of the same value any time earlier in the fight would have prevented you from losing aggro in the first place! Win! Unless you're routinely losing aggro on the pull... but I don't think a weapon proc is to blame for stupid DPSers.
Actually the only question to be asked regarding the proc is...
If I'm standing in front of the mob when it proc's, I will get a + to aggro, but while it proc's this buff I move to the flank. Will the + aggro be maintained? Or will it auto-change to a - to aggro?
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