Requests from a Master Weaponsmith

evilgamer wrote:

No one is going to need to stop autoattacking to position the mob, or when they need to spin the mob to perform combat manuvers. The procs themselves are only going to be happening at best 2 times a minute, it may take you 5 seconds to spin the mob and smack it twice, or to manuver into position for the next mob, that is about a one in twelve chance that you will get the proc at the wrong time. Thats less of a chance than your aggro proc, or a scout's deaggro proc, or a dearth of other effects. It's really a drop in the proverbial bucket. Helps when you want to fill the bucket, but not that big of an improvement.
I will agree that it is an extra tidbit that the weapons dont neccessarily need, but without testing, I will not say it is a bad thing. On paper this looks to be good, in practice, it could be bad. I hope the testing will tell that tale.
On not changing your playstyle, it alters everytime you get into a group with a different class makeup, when you solo a scout versus a caster mob, or when you fight a hoard of green ^^^ versus a yellow ^. If you do not adapt your playstyle a little between each and every combat, I dont understand how you can really accomplish anything.
This is a small change, like hundreds of other small changes, after a week or two, the clueful will 'get it' and the clueless will go on my no-group list per usual.

evilgamer wrote:

Terron@Splitpaw wrote:

I agree, this proc is worse then the old one.
I am not sure about the damage of the proc countering the aggro, procs seem very low aggro to me. And even then what if the mob spins on the tank and they you hit it with a aggro proc with the damage, once again not good.
Also if to the "dont group with x tank if he looses aggro" crowd, sorry but just about every tank can loose aggro to over DPS'ing people its easy to do. What if he is a new player like myself can not afford the adept taunts.
SOME OF US HAVE TO DO PICKUP GROUPS AND DO NOT GET TO CHOOSE WHO WE GROUP WITH.
I can live with a less then perfect player as long as he is capable of helping to complete the task, its totally unrealistic to expect always group with johnny/jenny on the spot all the time.
What taunt in splitpaw? Are you sure bruisers get that taunt, I have not seen anything about it on the bruiser CA list.
Legendary is not always better too, some of the legendary at the 42ish range I am in, have slightly better damage rating but worse stats and no proc. Its pretty much a wash alot of times, but with crap proc I would go legendary everytime.
As far as spinning mobs when grouped, you are not always groups with scouts, so I still do it quite frequently when grouped.

Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:

So you agree that this is a totally un-necessary change and could be a bad thing. So why again are you argueing for it?
Dont fix, what isnt broke.
The problems of weaponsmiths is not gleaming strike and this proc will not fix those problems and could potentially make them worse.

Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:

Weapons are not armor, weapon is your most important slot in the game for a melee, its far more important to upgrade your weapon then your hand armor slot.
Weapons not only produce alot if not most of your DPS as a scout/fighter, they also influence your aggro.
I have already said I have never seen a proc turn a mob in a group, they aggro the generate is very small.
But if go adding + hate this could very well change that. And for what? You only get the good + or - hate on this proc if the mob is already where its supposed to be anyway. What is the point again? If the mob is already where its supposed to be you dont need the proc, if it isnt, then you dont want it to proc.
And what if I am the secondary assist and the MA goes down and now all of a sudden I want aggro, but unfortunealy my weapon has been procing - hate taunts for the entire fight? What then?
No it would not make me happy if fighters were exluded from the proc I want the damage component like the other classes, I dont want the + or - aggro effect.

I would also like to say that I very happy that Dominoe is in this thread and trying to help smiths, I wish more developers were like her.
I am just expressing my opinion on the + or - hate component of gleaming strike and why I dont think it is a good idea.

evilgamer wrote:

I left what I said about the necessity of these changes in my quote above. I said that without testing we cannot make assumptions that this will be bad; because, on paper, this looks to be a good thing.
It is a minor alteration, really it is. It will not break your gameplay or anyone else's. Either people wil adapt to the new weapons, or they will #%^& hard about them ands it will be changed.
I still think that 99% of people will play like they are playing currently and the change will not even ping their radar.
I could concevably argue that the gleaming strike proc is currently broken because if it procs at the beginning of a fight after a taunt is resisted the scouts will get aggro. I could scream that they are broken because my newbie swashy had a lucky string of AE's and procs and got aggro and died, even though the tank had taunted. I could be arguing that the blessing proc would be broken if they get an early proc and the + to heal or spell damage gets them too much aggro.
With or without these procs, aggro will still bounce. Unless tanks get a 10,000 hate increaser 10 hate position taunt that is castable every 2 seconds while stifled, stunned or in another zone
Oh and weaponsmiths can only go up, If the gleaming strike weapons turn into poopie and we never sell a one, the blessing will be desirable in the mage , priest, and hybrid markets.
Edit: You do know that the bruiser epic has a positional deaggro/aggro proc, just like the MC weapons have, right? Will you not equip it for the same reasons?

Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:

My point with this proc is that if is the mob is where its supposed to be, you do not need it, the mob is already there.
If the mob is not where its supposed to be, then you do not want it and it makes it worse if it procs.
What is the benefit again?
I dont agree that it looks good on paper, I personally think it looks worse, coming from a tank and weaponsmiths perspective.
As far as the bruiser epic, I primarily go by damage rating when selecting a weapon, if I could equip a weapon that has a similar damage rating without that proc I would.
I have personally yet to see gleaming strike turn a mob with a proc.
I would also like to add, that fixing stats or damage rating, is not controversial with anyone, but this proc has raised more then a few eyebrows in this thread. In addition it was never even listed as a problem with MC weapons, I just would rather not see a potentially bad change to a thing that is fine the way it is.
Like I said, do not fix what is not broke.

BTW the Bruiser epic does not have a deaggro proc effect on it, only a aggro proc when attacking from the front.
With good reason.
That is why MC weapons just need a generic DD proc and that is it, when so many classes are meant to use weapons with that proc, its bound to create problems for some of the classes, that a simple DD proc would not.

That being said I will log on to test tonight and try it out.

Coming from a tank and a weaponsmith this change looks to be very promising.

Your scenario's are situational. It happens with everyone who plays this game and plays as a tank class. The most important thing to remember is your CA's are what will make you or break you. Those are the skill's that take priority over any Weapon. Because while weapons, armor, jewlery can be upgraded the same as CA's. Your CA's won't upgrade nearly as quick armor and weapons will. Every 14 levels you will receive an upgrade to one or two of your CA's vs. at most every 12 levels you will upgrade your armor and weapons.
The effect on the Imbue weapon that procs a +/- aggro AND gleaming strike (which the damage has not changed on the DD) looks to be a very positive approach to making crafted weapons desirable. There are going to be situations where you loose aggro when you don't want to, or gain aggro when you don't want to, and even have to gain aggro out of necessity for the groups sake. This happens to everyone in game. Not just the bruiser class...
The fact is...the percentage of this proc going off when you don't want to is very minimul, at about 1% chance of not working the way it was intended. As a MT you should already have your hate position 2 levels above everyone else, this proc will help to achieve that, but will not be the deciding factor. If your doing MA work then your hate position should be 1 level below the MT. The amount of damage your CA's do such as your Sucker Punch line will more than likely negate any decrease in aggro.
EXAMPLE:
As the MA the imbued weapon decreases aggro in t8 by 900, but you did 1800 damage to the target. Which means overall, your aggro only when up by 900 vs 1800.
If you MT and it proc's after you spin the target your aggro still went up by 900...it evens out...
On the reverse:
If your MT and hit for 1800 damage then you aggro will go up to 2700.

evilgamer wrote:

I was mistaken on the bruiser epic proc with the deaggro portion, that is true.
But, using your argument, if the mob isnt in the proper place, why is ANYONE doing ANYTHING to it but the tank? In my groups, once that mob twitches away from the tank, anyone who gets aggro and doesnt want to get creamed runs over to the tank (usually turning it back away from the rest of the group/raid) and spams deaggros with no casting and no autoattack. After it is in place this proc will only help, allowing more burn, faster. Again, not much help, but some help, mind you.
As for gleaming strike not pulling the mob, as I said before, 500 damage is 500 aggro. surely 400 accidental deaggro or 1400 accidental aggro from an unfortunate proc will not wipe your groups.
As for the MA not being able to get a mob onto him if the MT dies, what about death march, holy ground, drag, peel, recapture, or heck, RESCUE? They are specifically for that situation. 800 less aggro a minute will not change their effectiveness. Also, I'm kind of guessing that no raid MA's will be using the mastercrafted weapons in that role.
Hrm 800 less aggro, thats... what, one attack from a t8 weapon? One combat art? One failed crit or double attack? Waiting 5 seconds to engage a raid mob instead of 4?
2800 more aggro a minute is like a DPS-er starting the fight one second early, or one more round of hits or maybe even one good crit. My dirge with her fabled epic can crit for 3k, and doubleattack that same strength with each hand if I get really lucky. a 12k autoattack round is a bit more troublesome than a 900 aggro proc.
You seem to think that this change is signifigant and unneccessary. I think that this change is interesting and will make combat a bit more fun. I dont think that the deaggro generateed or accidental aggro generated is enough to create any long term issues with any class using the weapons. The learning curve will be there, but be gentle.
We will not know until tested. It is a good thing that you are going to test them. IF they suck I will eat my words and be in line to change it back. Maybe this will be horrible and broken, maybe these will be so good that incarnadine goes up to loam prices. I'm expecting somewhere right in the middle.

I am all for increasing the desirablity of MC weapons.
I just dont want to risk breaking something that is not broken.
The largest complaint with MC weapons are the stats and no consistancy (1 tier is piercing, the next is slashing, etc)
And yes any change that makes the game more difficult will be seen as a nerf. If this change makes it more difficult for the average player the value of these weapons will tank. You may see it as "fun" others will see it as a pain in the rear and not buy the weapons.
We should be increasing the desirability and power of MC weapons, not making them harder to use for subjective notions of what may or may not be "fun".
Maybee I am over reacting here, but I am extremely skeptical of a change that no-one is sure will be desirable and that nobody really complained about in the first place. If this proc sucks how long will it take them to fix it? I am new to the game but from reading threads two years old or older it seems the problems of smiths have been ignored for quite sometime now.
Like I said if it isnt broke, do not fix it.
Also I dont want to have to give up MC weapons for my bruiser because of bad proc when I spin the mob causes me to loose aggro in groups.

evilgamer wrote:

Both myself and Woodlark have stated how the damage you do effects your aggro.

In tier 8, this aggro proc will either do + 900 (if in front), or - 900 (from flank or behind). If you attack the target as the MT and spin the mob for your back attacks and the proc goes off, you will loose -900 of your aggro, however you hit the mob for 1800 damage. At this point you gained +900 aggro.
If you attack the target as the MT and do a frontal attack that did 1400 damage (in t8) and the proc goes off your aggro goes up to 2300...
Both situational scenario's allowed you to gain aggro effectively...

evilgamer wrote:

But , you see, with the math, and the taunts, and rescue if you really, really, really need it..

ah, you know what? Our minds are both made up at the moment. Testing is the only thing that will make or break this, since the change is going in.

To get back on track a bit.

Domino,

Any chance of having the different level writs timed out a bit more. Right now you can get a new set of writs (ex: talented) at lvl 50, 54, then 59. If it can be evened out a bit more, to be more like lvl 50, 54, 58, it would be appreciated...

Oh...and yah you can do this for the other crafts too

Seriously... if the chance of a 900-point aggro proc in T8 means you won't use these weapons, you should probably just stop tanking.

For short term aggro issues, if a 900-point proc is "dangerous", you need to only group with people with a 0% (or 100%) critical rate and no other proc items. Otherwise, consider this...a Wizard's biggest spells hit for 10K+ damage in T8. A crit on those (+30% damage) is a random effect worth 3000+ hate. And he might have the Vine-Wrapped boots (+10% to base damage) and Wand of Crystallized Plasma (+8% to base damage) proc buff up... and he might proc a bone-clasped girdle, or a mystical earring on the same hit.... so that one spell could, completely randomly, be 10K damage or 16K damage for the same "damage roll", not even couting the 2x variance between a low hit and high hit on the damage roll. (My level 73 illusionist alt has all of that gear save the wand, and there were 3 on the broker last I looked.)

For long-term aggro-over-time issues, I posted earlier in this thread that "...if you have +200 melee haste and 100% [combat art] haste and 100% recovery haste, and you never miss or delay an autoattack, and you chain-cast offensive [combat arts] with a [100% hit] rate, and you never get interrupted, stifled, or stunned... the proc will fire (1.6)x2.25+(1.6)x2 times per minute. That's .1133 procs per second. At 900 threat per proc, you're stacking on an extra 102 hate per second." 102 hate per second, in conditions that are well beyond anything you'd ever see in the game. Differences in typing speed or network lag from encounter to encounter are more than 102 DPS on my illusionist, much less the randomness of crits and other procs, or just high/low damage rolls. (And, in addition to needing perfect buffs and perfect timing and perfect luck with the random number generator, you also paradoxically need completely imperfect mob positioning on every proc for this 102 hate per second to hurt you.)

These new weapons are objectively better for aggro purposes. The short-term effects of the aggro proc will not meaningfully change already random combat effects. The long-term effects mean your DPSers can do a bit more damage and be in a bit less personal danger.

As for using your spin-the-mob attack as a bruiser tank... you actually will be changing your strategy there in the near future. Aim a mob's directional AE at your group in T7 or T8 (or, heck, even in T5's Mines of Meldrath on one mob, if I'm remembering him correctly) and you'll see why.

Prrasha wrote:

I tried to say this, but had not the words nor the math.
Very well said

Rashaak wrote:

Um how do you know I hit the mob for 1800 Damage? Where are you getting these numbers?
Even accepting your figures, without the aggro/deaggro proc effect firing, my aggro would have been +2700 versus +900.
If you are MT and loose aggro and the mob spins, then you weapon procs you just lost -900 aggro making it even harder to regain control.
If you already have control of the mob, what good is +900 aggro gonna be? You already have control.
The only benefit I could possibly see is the net + aggro or - aggro would be higher assuming that mobs remain under control. But there is also a potential to make a bad situation alot worse too occasionally.
If this positional deaggro proc was so great why did they not put it on the bruiser epic, when they did put on a positional aggro proc?
Which is the problem when you are designing cookie cutter weapons that are to be used by all classes, not all effects are desirable by all classes.
Will either of you two even use these weapons? Does your SK even use MC weapons?

evilgamer wrote:

Currently my SK is using a level 44 legendary item from Permafrost. I like to use crushing weapons and MC in it's current form in t6 is...well, the suxxors. I'm waiting for this revamp to upgrade him to the MC weapon. So yes...I will be.
My T8 Brigand still has 4 levels to go before he goes for his epic, and currently haven't found anything better than his t7 legendary weapons from Unrest. I have about 1 more lvl minimum befor getting into a good CoA group or Chelsith run, so these MC weapons will be an upgrade for him as well...

evilgamer wrote: