Requests from a Master Weaponsmith

Meirril wrote:

I'd like to apologize for any earlier confusion, Archonix took the time to specifically check through the code to ensure this is correct and his statement is accurate.

Which means someone using an imbued weapon will get imbue procs from attacks made with the imbued weapon: if they use the melee weapons then they get the melee weapon procs, if they use an imbued bow for range attacks then they get the bow's procs (also note that the imbue on the bows have not changed, so they will actually have a slightly higher proc rate than the imbues on the weapons, too). And if of course they find better upgrades than mastercrafted weapons, then they will get whatever advantages those weapons provide. Once again, the crafted weapons are not intended to be the best weapons available in game and most likely players of any class at the higher end of their level range will be at least working towards upgrades. These changes should however make them a desirable option when those upgrades are not yet available or equippable.

And for those claiming "if it doesn't work for rangers, it shouldn't work for ranged casters"... what about melee casters?

Guardian wades into combat, hits all his damage skills... they're all combat arts that can proc his weapon's effects.

Paladin wades into combat, hits all his damage skills... about half of those skills are spells that can't proc his weapon's effects.

Swashbuckler slips behind the mob, blasts away... they're all combat arts that can proc his weapon's effects.

Dirge slips behind the mob, blasts away... about half of those skills are spells that can't proc his weapon's effects.

So the "if it doesn't help my ranger, it shouldn't be changed" attitude seems to be urinating on the shoes of some classes that (IMHO) need more DPS help than rangers do.

Also, "ranged" casters of level 65 or higher probably have a weapon that procs on spells anyway, so they're not gaining any new abilities here. Grizzfazzle's Walking Stick is dead simple to get.

DominoDev wrote:

Thanks for the update Domino - the feedback is appreciated.
Is there any chance of getting something that rangers could equip in their primary / secondary slot items that would benefit them while they are in ranged combat? The MC symbols and such that jewelers make have a constant + % crit and + spell / heal on them, something similar in a weapon (or even a shield) with + ranged crit and + CA damage would be nice. There is a nice shield that drops in JW with good ranger effects on it - something with about ¾ of those effect would be nice on a MC item and would still fit in with the idea that there is better in the game to get upgraded to.

Rijacki wrote:

While I totally agree with this, rangers in particular NEED melee weapons desinged with them in mind.
I personally think a damage proc that triggers from ranged attacks is a little odd (and overpowered, if they went live, they would be one of the best ranger weapons in the game, short for maybe 1 raid dropped item).
This is more a general itemisation issue than tradeskill issue, but since there are bows in game for defensive purposes as well as bows in game with melee crit, there needs to be melee weapons with effects and skill bonuses that rangers want.
The problem with this, as I have said, is if a weapon was made with *any* ranged benefit other than str/int, it risks becoming the best weapon in game for one whole class, and will almost certianlly be the best non raid dropped weapon for them. Basically, should any weapon be made in the mastercrafted range that has a ranged benefit on it, said weapon would need to be handed to Fyreflyte, who should then multiply all stats and effects on it by 1.5 and add it to a heroic mobs loot table, then multiply the base stats and effects by 2 and add them to a raid mob.
On top of that, due to the fact that a ranger only has 1 bow, and other scouts (99% of the time) have 2 melee weapons, all with procs, the one proc rangers get use out of *should* either do twice the damage of a melee proc, or it should trigger twice as often. This is, of course, based on the assumption that mastercrafted weapons are to provide the same benifit to every player with them, reguardless of class.

Noaani wrote:

Ranged imbue already proc's twice as often as a melee

Noaani wrote:

It actually would not need to proc twice as much. CA's traditionally only proc the weapon in the primary slot. You only have to think about the balance between having 2 one handers auto attacking vs. a single bow. In some ways this is made up by the fact that rangers having very large delay weapons can normally fit their attacks between auto attacks which is much harder for a melee class.

Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:

Itemization in our game is a continually evolving beast and I'm sure that if it seems there is a need for particular item types, then it can be looked at. Whether they would belong in the realm of crafted/mastercrafted equipment or quested/loot drops is another question as well. Most likely a fundamental change to what certain classes would want to equip is something that Fyreflyte and Archonix would decide, and then where such a thing comes from would be up for internal discussion as appropriate. Strong opinions and suggestions along the lines of new equipment is probably best put in the items and equipment forum, I know Fyreflyte reads that faithfully.

It is, however, definitely beyond the scope of the current crafted weapon itemization, since my deadline to get this done is Wednesday!

And yes (to the earlier post) this has been submitted for GU45, the items and recipes are currently being poked at by QA and should move to Test with the next time it is updated. I'm just finishing off the writs today, and trying to track down any quests that may involve crafted weapons and might break (e.g. the tradeskill tutorial, the swords quest in Steppes, the deputy's quest in Enchanted Lands).

DominoDev wrote in part:

Great to hear, thank you! Very much something to look forward to.

DominoDev wrote:

So if I understand this correctly the "Trident" has been removed as an option for crafted weapon. To me this weapon was the obvious choice for a Mystic to use as a two-handed piercer. There are only 3 two-handed piercers available now and none of them have any wisdom on them. Perhaps I am just a special case but to my way of thinking this is a gap in the design.
I also noticed that the "War Mace" and the "War Maul" have exactly the same stats. My suggestion would be to change one of these two weapons to a "Trident". You can leave the stats exactly the same and just change the graphic and damage type or possibly it could be made a 2 stat weapon with strength and wisdom only.
I really should have posted this a lot earlier as you must be getting quite close to your change freeze for the next game update.

DominoDev wrote:

If you are looking at that quest in TS that requires making some swords for Brianna (sp?), could you change it to give a decent reward - something equal to T2 handcrafted is poor for a T3 quest.

I havent been surfing this thread, but are they still going forward with the + hate proc if facing target and - hate if on flank or to the rear proc?
I still think that is a bad idea, my bruiser gets an Acheivement ability that spins the mob and exposes its back for a few seconds, I always use it when tanking as its the only way I can get off my sucker punch line which requires me to either be flanking or behind the mob. I still have aggro, but it just temporarily spins the mob so I can get off my sucker punch line.
The problem with this proc for me is that if I spin the mob so I can get off my sucker punch line, I dont want the weapon procing when the mob is not facing me while tanking for a group.
I always imbue my weapons, but if this thing goes live, I wont be doing it anymore.
Most mastercrafted items people make they also take the time to imbue, if this goes live I will probably just start using the legendary dropped weapons.

DominoDev wrote:

Then I vote NO hate modifier, I like gleaming strike as it currently is.

Kittsune@Unrest wrote:

Agreed

evilgamer wrote:

The hate proc isn't as bad as you think. If your any good with your bruiser, the hate proc will not affect your overall hate position as Main Tank when using your spin attack and sucker punch line. +/- 900 at T8 is really not that much tbh. A scouts self-buff Baffle decreases aggro at minimum of 940 - 1,500 at Adept 1, and they can still very easily take aggro from a main tank.
Also, this +/- 900 isn't going to be a constant through all tiers either. It'll adjust for the tier level range that it is in. So if your in tier 4, most likely it'll only be about +/- 200 or 300. So the difference won't be much and overall hate gain/loss won't be determined by the weapon(s) either, it'll be determined on how well the player plays his class.
So, before getting all doom and gloom, make a toon on test and see just how well the weapon(s) react with the +/- aggro. Because me personally I love the idea of having my weapon proc an aggro increaser/decreaser, because as an SK, we can use all the aggro increasers we can get!
This will also benefit the Bruiser too, since they only have a single target taunt, and maybe an addt'l taunt from the AA line, but they are limited in their ability to directly taunt a mob and garner aggro. Which is why it's important for them to do as much DPS as possible. Same apply's for SK's and Pally's too. You'll probably be surprised at the outcome of having weapon(s) that can proc aggro.

On a side note though, you could always use your Spin Target attack 'after' the weapons done proc'ing...

Rashaak wrote:

Not every player has the $ for adept 1 deaggro buffs, my bruiser at level 41 has no adept skills as he doesnt have the money, everything I have is app 4 or 1.
At tier 4 200-300 aggro is alot, our taunts are not much better then that now.
Bruisers do get a encounter taunt and a single target taunt.
As far as using my spin attack after the weapon procs, I dont like that idea either, my sucker punch line is by far my most consistently damaging line and I try to always get it off as quickly as possible, with the mob spinned, I also use my 100 hand punch line, as when the mob is turned its less likely to parry and interupt the sequence.
Of my two most powerful attacks, 1 requires a spinned mob and the other works much better with a spinned mob. The spin attack is in my opinion our best acheivment ability, as it sets up sucker punch, makes 100 hand punch work much better, and works like a stun in that we dont get hit while the mob is spinned.
I am sorry but I dont like these - or + hate procs.
I was in a dungeon last night with a guard tank, when he pulled the 6-8 mob encounters it was very hectic and often very hard to determine which end some of the more bizaare bodied mobs were facing, (Does a goo have a front or back). I dont want have to worry about where I am facing the mob because of a proc, if I have to turn off attack until I get in the right position it will hurt my dps, which defeats the whole idea of a proc anyway.
An SK aggro needs fixed with spells/abilities, not gimickey procs.
One of the reason I use mastercrafted weapons is because of the proc and stats, as the legendary gernerally have a better damage rating, if they add this - or + hate proc thing, I will probably stop using mastercrafted.
I am not the only one in this thread who has voiced concern about this proc either. At least half of those who have mentioned it do not like it either.
Weapons are about damage, leave the aggro/deaggro stuff to abilities and spells.

evilgamer wrote:

I wrote that I thought the new proc to be slightly worse than the old one for my guard.
It is still better than no proc.

Even if it procs at the wrong time the aggro from the damage will largely counter the proc's deaggro.

Legendary is supposed to be better.

Note that if your single target taunt is only adept 1 you should go to Splitpaw and get the taunt spell from there.
It has only one quality, scales with your level, and will probably give more hate than an adept I taunt.

Spinning mob sounds great for soloing, but a bad idea when tanking when the scouts are trying to position themselves for their attacks.

evilgamer wrote:

When the new weapons are introduced, their damage ratings are being adjusted as well. They will at least be on par with low to mid same tier legendary weapons.
The fact is though...an option was given on how to still use your attack and still get the benefit from this weapon. I can't tell you how to play, because everyone plays their toons different. But the particular way you play may not be the way others play.

Like I said....make a toon on test, and try them out. Or at the very least visit the Test forums after the update goes to the test server and see what it said about them there. Most people don't like change if they feel it directly invovles them and how they play their toon. I know a ton of players that grew upset after GU 13 combat revamp. My assassin got a big time reduction in damage output and was no longer able to solo ^^^ even con heroic's. But hey...thats the way the game goes sometimes. You look at this change as a detrimental affect and fear of aggro loss, but you don't even really know if the affect will be bad or good.
Overall...I like the aggro proc, and would be extremely happy it stays.

Rashaak wrote:

The proc damage will not be enough to justify not using my spin attack/sucker punch/100 hand attack.
Sorry that is just the way it is.
And the mob position is not "situational", I am sorry but when you have a 6 person group with 8 mobs standing around and beating on them, its very hard sometimes to even tell which mob the MA is even hitting. I just target the MA and start using my CA. If I have to turn off auto attack to find the backside of a mob my DPS will go down and so will everyone elses.
Even if a rouge has to get on the back side of a mob to do his best attacks, alot of them still turn on auto attack and make a few hits on the way there. But now that will be undesirable as that chance of an aggro gaining proc will go off.
I really dont know why procs were even being messed with, the problems origninally stated was stats and itemization. The part about a weaon being slash at 1 teir and crush in another.
Nobody has ever complained about the gleaming strike proc in my recollection.
I am almost 100% that this proc will be disliked because it will force people to keep auto attack off until they are in the right postion, if they can even find the right position. DPS will go down and people will hate it.
Just keep the regular gleaming strike, nobody was complaining about it anyway. Dont fix what wasnt broken.
I wont change my playstyle I will just stop buying imbued weapons or mastercrafted altogether.

evilgamer wrote:

A few things..
If you can afford mastercrafted weapons you -should- be able to afford at least Adept quality arts, if not Adept 3-s. If you harvested for the rares, you probably held out to get MC armor too, that should have gotten you loams at least for the important spells, like your taunts and big hits, etc.
Another thing a lot of people are overlooking is the damage component to these procs is adding to hate, even while positionally you may be proccing the deaggro. At 500 damage on the proc in t8, coupled with the melee hit or spell or CA damage, you are at worst breaking even on aggro, not losing aggro. It is going to affect the aggro list more like a miss, than a deaggro.
Now that can be a bad thing, I agree, but if the other casters & melee folks are deaggroing with this proc more often than the tank is deaggroing with this proc, it will balance out in the tank's favor every time, over time.
Snap aggro may be an issue, but that can only breed a better class of player, who can deal with snap aggro better, both the tank by getting it back on him/her, the DPS who will reflexively use their deaggros better over time, and the healers who will swap targets and click to heal the squishie better.
I dont have a SK, but I group with one quite often, and we chat mechanics all the time. It is my understanding that they have a ton of spells and AE spells that will proc now on cast when before they were missing that damage boost. This seems like it would be a big increase for them, even if the mob is getting the deaggro effect. AE's that can trigger gleaming strike? I would think that would be a good thing for any crusader. DPS will only go up for Pallys and SK's and overall damage will ultimately net tighter aggro. SK aggro will not be fixed with these weapons, and I agree it shouldnt be fixed by gear or procs. I believe that they need more snap aggro tools to help them, they seem to hold aggro fine once they attain it. IMHO, these weapons are not overall going to hurt their aggro though.
Now that is comparing these MC weapons with the current version of MC, there will be an overall increase in damage and aggro, as long as the mob is turned more often than not. Adding in legendary weapons and above, the MC is still not the first choice, which is fine.

Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:

Um the difference between a MC weapon and a treasured weapon is huge and justifies the price. As a melee, you most important slot is your weapons, which is why people get so uptight about them and we have things like epic weapons.
The difference between app 4 & adept is often not enough to justify paying the price. Weapons upgrades are very critical, adept, not so much.
For tanks it goes weapons > armor > jewerly or combat abilities.
The aggro component on the gleaming strike damage is so minimal it hardly matters and does not justify a deaggro proc. You are also assuming that everyone has a MC weapon in the group, tank and dps.
I am not talking about the heal/caster proc, just gleaming strike.
My question is was anyone complaining about gleaming strike in the first place? If not, then why are we "fixing" it?
The current gleaming strike works for all the melees in all situations, leave well enough alone.
If you want to introduce a caster proc, be my guest, but please leave gleaming strike alone.