Example of how I want to see it done, completely randomized to try not to skew the results. 1) Monk 2) Guardian 3) Shadowknight 4) Bruiser 5) Paladin 6) Berserker Okay, so this is a bit of a newbie question. If you guys are going to answer please be people with raid experience in the newest xpacs. I'm a returning player that hasn't played since 2011 and I'm wondering if there have been many changes. Rating 1-6 which is the best MT for raid, 2nd best, 3rd best, etc and why. When I raided, we actually used a Berserker for RoK, TSO and DoV. As a 3-4 night a week raid guild that only was able to get to intermediate mobs, it worked for us. If we were failing on mobs, it wasn't because of aggro control or squishyness, rather DPS, overall guild ability, and strats. Our berserker did an amazing job, but we never did the last guy in the zone with a zerker tank to actually see if squishiness would have factored in. It MIGHT have then, but our tank was sure specced right for raids and never showed ANY signs of it. Our healers were top notch too. I think our raid weakness was definitely in dps, which is tough to admit as I was a dpser. But I've seen Guardian MT, Paladin MT, and SK MT too. Any guilds out there actually using Bruiser and Monk consistently as MT? I've heard of it...but haven't seen it personally. But it's up to you guys. With all the latest info...fill me in. Rank your tank!
Yeah that's part of why I'm asking this now, so I have a clue what people are thinking before the xpac, so I can watch with even more interest if they are going to do any balancing.
I cant tell if this is TLE post or not. If it isn't then its literally Zerk/monk/guard in that order. Then everyone else equally bad. Zerks are easily hands down the best MT and OT in game atm in live by a large margin.
So monk is a totally legitimate raid tank in this xpac? Did you guys also find it was a legit tank back at 70 and 80 level caps as well, or is this a more recent thing?
The fact that you're so skeptical kinda feels insulting... But yes, Monks have been entirely "legit" raid tanks for several expansions, now. We were arguably OP for a bit, actually.
Not at all, please understand, the reason I'm asking is because I'm coming back after 5 to 6 years off. I came back on Nagafen, which has no population, which means I haven't even run a group this xpac yet even though I've been back for a month. There are literally not enough people online to even form one group. Seriously. I am patiently waiting for a merger. In other words, I haven't even seen the xpacs you are talking about, so I'm just legitimately curious as to what might have changed and how from when I used to raid in TSO, RoK, and such. Destiny of Velious is the last xpac I even touched, and I didn't play in it all that much, and we didn't have a monk in our raid force that was capable at level 90 of tanking so even if they were capable then I didn't get to see it. So when I was last around, the general consensus was that monks were far too squishy to tank, even though the Trakanon mythical gave them chain armor mitigation. (Yes, that's how old my info is). The reason I started this thread then was because it's actually literally my only way of finding out what has been going on in this xpac for tanking and trying to catch up to the latest trends. I appreciate all the info, and I'm curious as to what may have specifically changed to give monks more tanking viability than, say, Paladin? Or were the monks in my guild just that bad, and they could have tanked even in Mythical Weapon update timeframe? (Which is mainly when I was a raider, Trakanon, etc...) Sorry if my curiosity came across as skepticism it wasn't intended.
1. Bruiser/ zerker 2. Guard / monk I've mted all but 2 fights effectively as a bruiser. The 2 fights that I haven't were much better suited for a zerker ( karana and last name in RC)
Monks have an extremely short recast stoneskin and short recast escape death triggers; they also have a lot of "100% immunities" so they are rarely hit and when they do they can defend against the "red text" or "defend or die against" effect Bruisers share a lot of the same defensive skills as monks do but on slightly longer recasts Guardians tend towards multiple stoneskin triggers on their semi-short recast defending abilities so can at times be preferred all three classes have easily the best selection of "snaps" (rescues) out of all the tanks although brawlers have best offensive buffs Paladin on the other hand is a bit of an odd-ball as for pure "save or die against" they have 3 abilities they can cycle although there are often "worrying gaps" in this rotation - however they have an extensive selection of damage reduction abilities which combined with their self healing and other defensive abilities means if the damage is not "save or die" and they have a large health pool their defensive power is very strong; perhaps the most defensive of the tanks outside of "save or die" Taking this defensive line however really impacts their personal DPS however and combined with low snaps means they are often shunted out of the MT spot. All in all who is "top tank" in an expansion it is all about the content: - a *lot* of save of die text (Bruiser, Monk, Guardian) - a lot of AoE damage which isn't designed to one-shot you (Paladin or SK) - a lot of DPS checks (Berserker, SK, Bruiser) - a lot of multi-encounter (Bruiser, SK, Berserker) - a lot of memwipe/blur/whatever (anyone but pally) Since Sentinal's Fate running with a Brawler as the MT you would have no issues whatsoever with all the subsequent expansions as whilst they may not be perfect they are easily the most well rounded of the tanks and have no real Achilles heal even the fact they wear leather over plate is not that much of a disadvantage due to temps and avoidance abilities.
Zerks have 3 death saves along with the best defensive temp rotation. The only thing that has changed from last x-pac of Zerk/Monk master race is that Ancient Dev wrecked Monks at the start of the x-pac but at this point its not an issue. Regardless, all 6 tanks can be used to tank high in content. Its just a question of how hard to you want to work why the Zerk is lol'sin at you. I think this thread is representative of that. Genghes has apparently tanked everything but a few names just like myself on an SK (FR, CT and Brell) . These are two of the less desirable classes; So its possible to do, you just have to work harder for it and rely on outside help more. Currently the only tanks afaik that aren't represented in a avatar clearing guild is a Paladin and Guardian. This is unfortunately due to the respective counterparts of these 2 being superior in every way. This really bothers me, I'm a Pally at heart and always have been but they are just so fuckawful atm. Paladins have the worst defensive temp rotation, worst snaps, awful utility, sub par DPS if not lowest dps of all the tanks. The only thing the Paladin has going for it is sustained aggro generation b/c of Amends/Sigil. Now, this has nothing to do with heroic content or RC/CHH/Zav teir raids. This is strictly speaking in terms of min/max at the top end. If you disagree please highlight the section and lets discuss it at length.
on that I disagree but taking the defensive line (left side prestige) really impacts personal DPS so in general I get out parsed by healers in groups (even templars) I didn't realize how bad it was until I geared up my dirge a bit - the difference is like night and day.
Too late to edit my last post ;( I'm curious why you consider Bruiser > Monk? A 4 sec temp does nothing to close the massive gap a Paladin has in his temp rotation. 4 additional seconds to SW also is no where long enough. I'd even go as far to say that Faith is the worse left side temp out of all the tanks left side defensive abilities. Edit: If Faith was adjusted to say 8 seconds with 3/3 aa's, DA changed 50% DR for the duration and Mana wall increased to at least 8 seconds. Hello! Paladin survivability; Where have you been for so long
Its more a combination of factors than just Faith. Although faith used as a stoneskin is really *really* good. (e.g. ignore the fact it has a duration and treat it as a stoneskin) 4s more on stonewall 12s 35% DR buff (stacks with others so pushes me to 55% Physical DR. Stoneskin on LoH Divine aura is viable at reducing (not stopping) damage and most effective to guard against flurry and MA. A new 30% spell DR buff (i hardly use) That dragon AA which gives 10% more duration Sigil gives a really nice mitigation boost (seen 28k mit in a group before (not bad for mainly solo geared) Then tack on crusaders faith and faithful cry for pretty much 100% of the time having a self HoT on you. You pretty much have to spec full defensive or go home as DR only really works with max health max mit max resists; I prefer not to think of the pally defensive buffs as "click this to win every 20s" more "this enhances what you already have got... so the better your gear the more effective these abilities are.
10 passive DR, 10 passive heal 0-13.2 seconds DS 35 DR for 13.2 sec < Solid Temp, useful against all damage just needs to be moved to DoF 13.2-26 seconds SW. Blocks all melee attacks, inferior to dodge, riposte or parry. Useful to stop frontal auto dmg 26-30 seconds Faith- Stops all damage for 4 seconds. Not nearly long enough to be a left side defensive ability. 30-?? seconds LoH for a single shot SS. The recast is just too long for this ability not to mention youre blowing LoH. Hateful Respite for example is 1min recast with same SS effect. Lets assume you get 7 seconds out of LoH on ave. 30-37 seconds - Oops, I hope I got a reset on DS by blowing my heals. Or use notoriously unreliable DA for 16 sec and listen closely for DF triggering. Shooo I made it through 1 temp rotation! Thank goodness DS and SW will be back up soon! 37-53 seconds DS again, shoo that was close; ok I'm safe for another 13 seconds 53-66 seconds SW, Ok wards stacking on me to help with Ancient Dev coming or use LC for 20 seconds wont be back up for 2 mins 66-79 seconds Ya better start praying b/c everything is down at this point for 45 seconds. Insert 4 seconds for Faith, you better start askin for stuff from your healers. Next thing you have up is DS again at 45 seconds then SW after DS then you have LoH. You've got a 40-45 seconds hole to deal with. No other tanks have that large of a hole in their temps. LC and HW can bridge a small gaps for Ancient Dev but at 2/1:30 min recast; It wont be up for the next hole. If you loose LoH sooner than 7 seconds then the hole is that much bigger. You basically have to get lucky and get a DS reset to reduce the whole to 30ish seconds. Hell, we'll even say you take MW you've still got 36+ seconds to deal with. To top everything thing off most of the Paladin defensive temps are not maintained effects which means UI's like Drums and Profit will not track your temps for you. SW and DA work. Basically you have to rely on ACT for accurate timing to even get it this close. You wont be able to see through the spam in you buff window in raids.
Why I chose bruiser over monk is versatility. Bruiser can avoid any type of damage melee/ non melee. The class can proc 100% absorption stone skins and doesn't rely 100% on temp rotations. For dps, I believe the bruiser does more. Agro control on a bruiser is better on ae and about equal on st. I'm sure others will disagree, and rely on what they heard someone once said.
I would agree with your last quotes esp the part about 2nd/3rd,15th hand info; However, do you find yourself getting boned sometimes trying to rely on a proc? How do you deal with that? Is the effect maintained so it can be viewed on demand or is it like the SS earring that cannot be tracked?
None of those abilities is 100% effective all the time except faith so 4s every 45s is the real score. All the rest merely reduce the incoming damage (stonewall against magical damage = useless) 40% magical DR against melee attacks = useless. So I would add sigil ( mit boost) crusader faith (heal from dps) and divine aura (MA protection) into the mix as well. Self cure should not be overlooked as well (most healers use group cure so you can generally get yours off faster) and the until canceled death save as well on a pretty short recast (2m30s) I've not grouped much recently but survival not the biggest issue with pallys right now... more lack of snaps and pathetic DPS which rank highest
I'll guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Faith. Ancient Dev doesn't have a cast bar and it varies from mob to mob as to the recast. I'm not debating that Paladins are 100% viable for heroic content; However, for raid content survivability is their biggest weakness. If a tank can't stay alive wtf good is it? Heals and DA work fine in Heroic content but they don't work very well at all in raids.
