Ranger Updates

ARCHIVED-Runewind · Mar 6, 2006

“Eyes_of_Truth wrote:

“Lockeye wrote:
In the next test server updates, you'll see some of the changes that we're making made for Rangers. I analyzed DPS data from Rangers throughout all the servers and pinpointed specific problem areas.

-Some of the Ranger melee and ranged combat arts were dealing less damage than what an Assassin would deal. This was never addressed in the past largely because their proc damage overshadowed any deficiencies in the actual combat arts damage. They are now increased to match the damage performance of an Assassin. The difference remains that Rangers have more ranged combat arts than Assassins, so they do have more combat arts that require slightly more casting time than Assassins.

-Most classes don't have ranged autoattack unless they are pulling. Rangers are an exception because of how often they use ranged combat arts will force them to use their ranged autoattack much more often. Damage rating across all ranged weapons is increased by 33% to be in line with the damage rating offered by 2-handed weapons. Previously their average damage rating was below that of a 1-handed weapon.

-Soloing for a Ranger is generally difficult because they are at a tactical disadvantage for having less melee combat arts than Assassins. Their 'Lunge' combat art line was a melee attack + DoT, which really did not offer anything different than their 'Bleeding Cut' line. 'Lunge' is now changed into a melee attack + very short duration unbreakable Root, so that the Ranger can back away and get up to two more ranged combat arts in while soloing.”

YAY!
I have been waiting for a short duration root spell for sooo long! I also had been wondering why rangers have two attacks that are almost identicle, with the exception of their durations on the DOT.
This is a most exceptional change!
Im hoping that the root duration is around 6-10 seconds? breakable after say, 2 hits? with a reuses of say 15 seconds? that might work, im incredibly interested in hearing the duration and recast that you decide upon :smileyhappy:

I never thought about making the Lunge line a melee root, but that is a amazing idea. What i had previously thought was to make Lunge a knockback with a 5 second stun (imagine leaping and bounding off your foe, knocking them back from you far enough that you could then fire off a round while they are briefly stunned)”

It's unbreakable =P I'm guessing the duration is around 6 secondsish. Since he said we could get in up to 2 ranger CAs. Awesome change. Awesome changes all around I've very pleased

ARCHIVED-seabhac · Mar 6, 2006

“Lockeye wrote:
In the next test server updates, you'll see some of the changes that we're making made for Rangers. I analyzed DPS data from Rangers throughout all the servers and pinpointed specific problem areas.

-Some of the Ranger melee and ranged combat arts were dealing less damage than what an Assassin would deal. This was never addressed in the past largely because their proc damage overshadowed any deficiencies in the actual combat arts damage. They are now increased to match the damage performance of an Assassin. The difference remains that Rangers have more ranged combat arts than Assassins, so they do have more combat arts that require slightly more casting time than Assassins.

-Most classes don't have ranged autoattack unless they are pulling. Rangers are an exception because of how often they use ranged combat arts will force them to use their ranged autoattack much more often. Damage rating across all ranged weapons is increased by 33% to be in line with the damage rating offered by 2-handed weapons. Previously their average damage rating was below that of a 1-handed weapon.

-Soloing for a Ranger is generally difficult because they are at a tactical disadvantage for having less melee combat arts than Assassins. Their 'Lunge' combat art line was a melee attack + DoT, which really did not offer anything different than their 'Bleeding Cut' line. 'Lunge' is now changed into a melee attack + very short duration unbreakable Root, so that the Ranger can back away and get up to two more ranged combat arts in while soloing.”

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GIBBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/does the happy dance!

ARCHIVED-skylancer · Mar 6, 2006

Wow-
Thank you very much for listening to the Ranger community.
I have been playing Ol' Skylancer since day 1, and it was very diffucult until LU13 to get groups or be in raids, LU13 was wonderful and our DPS was a wonder to behold.
My parses since LU20 still have me below FURY'S!(Healers! OMG!!!), BRUISERS(while tanking), and just about every other class lol...
Hopefully this will help ty-
Skylancer,
lvl 68 rgr BB

ARCHIVED-jarlaxle888 · Mar 6, 2006

great news! sounds good, hope it looks it'll turn out good when it's live. the 'lunge' change sounds pretty great to me as solo ranger. at last one of those 2 'buttons to press in melee' DoT CAs gets some useful flavor. :smileyhappy:
thanks Lockeye for communicating this to us. it's good to hear some dev response to our concerns. like others, i appreciate this very much :smileyhappy:
---------------------------
Ryilan Nightbreeze
---------------------------

ARCHIVED-Ail · Mar 6, 2006

“Lockeye wrote:
In the next test server updates, you'll see some of the changes that we're making made for Rangers. I analyzed DPS data from Rangers throughout all the servers and pinpointed specific problem areas.

-Some of the Ranger melee and ranged combat arts were dealing less damage than what an Assassin would deal. This was never addressed in the past largely because their proc damage overshadowed any deficiencies in the actual combat arts damage. They are now increased to match the damage performance of an Assassin. The difference remains that Rangers have more ranged combat arts than Assassins, so they do have more combat arts that require slightly more casting time than Assassins.

-Most classes don't have ranged autoattack unless they are pulling. Rangers are an exception because of how often they use ranged combat arts will force them to use their ranged autoattack much more often. Damage rating across all ranged weapons is increased by 33% to be in line with the damage rating offered by 2-handed weapons. Previously their average damage rating was below that of a 1-handed weapon.

Mmm from what I have seen so far damage rating of KoS bows is already almost in line with damage rating of 2h weapons ( have found bow with damage rating 80+ so far). So will the KoS bow get their damage increased or only the bows under level 60 ?

-Soloing for a Ranger is generally difficult because they are at a tactical disadvantage for having less melee combat arts than Assassins. Their 'Lunge' combat art line was a melee attack + DoT, which really did not offer anything different than their 'Bleeding Cut' line. 'Lunge' is now changed into a melee attack + very short duration unbreakable Root, so that the Ranger can back away and get up to two more ranged combat arts in while soloing.”

ARCHIVED-Crychtonn · Mar 6, 2006

Ail that's the problem with bows to begin with. They do have the same or similar damage rating of 2h weapons but with a delay 2 - 2.5 times longer. The bigger the delay on a weapon the higher the damage rating will be. The damage rating on your 6 sec delay bow shouldn't be equal to that of a 2.5 sec 2h sword. It should be alot higher.

Along with the fix to bow damage ratings I really hope they fix arrows to be in the correct tier. Running around using 'Grey' T7 adamantine arrows just feels dirty. Please fix them

ARCHIVED-hieronymus · Mar 6, 2006

“Crychtonn wrote:

Along with the fix to bow damage ratings I really hope they fix arrows to be in the correct tier. Running around using 'Grey' T7 adamantine arrows just feels dirty. Please fix them ”

looking at the arrows they say they are level 50?? wots going on there...

ARCHIVED-Ail · Mar 6, 2006

“Crychtonn wrote:
Ail that's the problem with bows to begin with. They do have the same or similar damage rating of 2h weapons but with a delay 2 - 2.5 times longer. The bigger the delay on a weapon the higher the damage rating will be. The damage rating on your 6 sec delay bow shouldn't be equal to that of a 2.5 sec 2h sword. It should be alot higher.

Along with the fix to bow damage ratings I really hope they fix arrows to be in the correct tier. Running around using 'Grey' T7 adamantine arrows just feels dirty. Please fix them ”

That is not true. Damage rating is more a function of dps, compare a slow piercing and a fast dagger with similar damage rating and you will see that for yourself...

ARCHIVED-Crychtonn · Mar 6, 2006

The only time a faster duel wield weapon will have a higher damage rating then a slower one is if they are different tiers or categories. Compare two treasure items with the same level to use requirements. The slower weapon will have a higher damage rating. It's the system used to compensate for the faster weapon hitting more often.
If your comparing a fast legendary weapon to a slow treasured item there's a good chance the legendary will have a higher damage rating. Same as if you compare a fable weapon to a legendary. Or if you compare a weapon useable at 62 to one useable at 68.

ARCHIVED-Ail · Mar 6, 2006

“Crychtonn wrote:
The only time a faster duel wield weapon will have a higher damage rating then a slower one is if they are different tiers or categories. Compare two treasure items with the same level to use requirements. The slower weapon will have a higher damage rating. It's the system used to compensate for the faster weapon hitting more often.
If your comparing a fast legendary weapon to a slow treasured item there's a good chance the legendary will have a higher damage rating. Same as if you compare a fable weapon to a legendary. Or if you compare a weapon useable at 62 to one useable at 68.”

I don't think we are speaking of the same thing.
A weapon has 3 stats :
Delay, Damage and Damage rating.
Delay is how often you swing.
Damage is usually two numbers and indicate what damage you do per swing.
Damage rating is something that was added a while after release and allow you to compare weapons with different speed and damage to know which one is the better.
It is the equivallent of the dps of the weapon.
The formula for computing it is average damage divided by delay....
2 weapons with the same damage rating will do equivallent damage over a certain amount of time ( the faster one will swing more often for less damage, the slower one will swing less often but for more damage...).

ARCHIVED-deaks · Mar 6, 2006

“Xney wrote:

Ekard,

This is what I mean by proc chances related to CA usage. I'm not sure if this is how it works or not, but I believe it does. My theory is that casting a CA "interrupts" your AA so that it re-times. It's not a huge deal, but it could be significant.”

I wasn't addressing your comment about procs in my previous posting and I apologize for that. Whatever the result of the "does long bow or dual-wield give more advantageous auto-attack opportunities due to CA usage" it will directly affect the likelihood of procs for that type of user. I'd say that we can't rule on that at all until the initial auto-attack question is resolved.

“Xney wrote:

Example, Ranger R and Assassin A want to cast 3 CAs (1, 2, 3) as fast as possible. We'll assume they have the same proc%/damage rating for now. Meaning 30% chance to proc 100 damage is the same as 10% chance to proc 300 damge. Expected DPS is still 30 in both cases. R is using a bow with 5x the auto-attack delay of A. A's weapon attacks 5 times more often, but with 1/5th the damage. We'll say the CAs all take the same length of time (1.5 seconds)

Note: don't pay attention to the exact numbers on the damage but rather how it adds up.

Ranger combat, 15 seconds:

CA 1 (1.5s)
CA 2 (1.5s)
CA 3 (1.5s) .
---- 4.5s taken so far.
Auto-attack hits at 9.5seconds
Auot-attack hits at 14.5 seconds

Assassin combat:

CA 1 (1.5s)
CA 2 (1.5s)
CA 3 (1.5s)
---- 4.5s taken so far
AA hits at 9.5s
AA hits at 11.5s
AA hits at 13.5s
AA hits at 15.5s”

In this case, we have a maximum of 8 hits for the Assassin (assuming two weapons with the same delay, each will hit when the auto-attack timer expires) and 2 hits for the Ranger.

This will only be an equal amount of damage if the Assassin auto-attacks are 1/4 of the damage of the Ranger, generally using tier-appropriate arrows and soloing this is a reasonable estimate (Assassin dual wield damage could be 300, Ranger arrow damage I estimate to be around 1200 with tier-appropriate arrows and self-buffed).

Note that the Assassin has +dps to acquire such damage while the Ranger actually has +haste and can still achieve this damage (again I am assuming the Ranger damage, correct me as appropriate -- I am attempting to remove the bias of my +dps on my own long bow auto-attack figures), the impact of your haste must be figured into this equation as well. Also note that generally an Assassin will not be using two weapons of exactly the same delay -- due to the way auto-attack syncs up two weapons on different delay cycles more dual-wield melee auto-attack opportunities will be lost in this case.

“Xney wrote:

So far, pretty close, right? OK now let's say, the CAs are not instant-spammed, but rather every 1 or 2 CAs you take 2 seconds between them. This happens in the fights when you are not casting as fast as possible but rather waiting sometimes for something to happen, often early in the fighting mode.

The Ranger one will look exactly the same, except the CA and AA times will be pushed out by whatever delay you introduce.

The Assassin one will look like this:

CA 1 (1.5s) -
Auto-attack hits due to 2 second pause being below delay
CA 2 (1.5s)
CA 3 (1.5s)
Auto
Auto

etc.

Now, like I said, I may be entirely confused on this issue but it seems to me that assassins would get more auto-attacks during CA "pauses" than Rangers would, because they get more chance to do an attack in a smaller space of time. While the attacks would be proportionally smaller than a Ranger attack (and smaller proc%), they are attacks that do not exist in the Ranger place.

If this is not true, then auto-attacks should "queue up" and release when the combination of CA time and inbetween time pass the delay of the weapon. This would be visible in dps parsers or visually as the normal ranged attack going off at the same time or shortly thereafter. Perhaps somebody already knows if this is the case.

Does this matter? Maybe not, because many factors go into DPS adjustments and it might be accounted for, even if it exists. I just thought I would throw this out there. I need to play with the bow auto-attack and see whether or not this happens.”

Our understandings of how auto-attack timers interact with combat art usage is different. I haven't done a test at all recently so I can only say what I believe and test it later.

My understanding is that auto-attack has a set cycle that is not interrupted by CA usage, at the end of a long cast I would expect to have a long bow auto-attack timer to be ready or almost ready (when fully hasted) but during that same casting time have lost a hand full of dual-wield melee auto-attack opportunities.

ARCHIVED-Samundus · Mar 7, 2006

OH MY there is a God. my prayers where answerd, now i wish they where answard with lighting blots, but then again all the developers would be dead

ARCHIVED-Jayad · Mar 7, 2006

deaks,

I would be interested in knowing if using CAs interrupts (restarts) the auto-attack timer, or if auto-attacks can accumulate and go off when the CA does.

Does anybody know? For Rangers it could be very significant.

ARCHIVED-XxSwiftyxX · Mar 7, 2006

I was beginning to wonder when they were going to replace our bows with slingshots :smileytongue:, glad the designer made this thread...

ARCHIVED-Starsilk · Mar 8, 2006

Thank you!!!!!

ARCHIVED-chrno01 · Mar 8, 2006

So it says on test updates this has gone live. Whats the duration someone screen shot there line of spells and post them here. If not tell us the damage/effect on all of them. I want to know how long the root it, it says a very short duration root...Sounds like its gona be a flop to me like 3 seconds or something, if its thats what it really is they better give us the ability to use bow at any range or run and use bow CA again.

ARCHIVED-Star · Mar 8, 2006

See this thread Chrystolred:
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=26220

ARCHIVED-Tymora · Mar 8, 2006

This is very encouraging, and I am glad that further balancing is taking place . . . but I am still not going to solo
Lucinde, Ranger of Norrath

“Everyone who solos, dies. Boromir? Dead. Gollum? Dead. Frodo? Would have died but Sam wouldn't let that n00b solo.”

ARCHIVED-Star · Mar 8, 2006

“Tymora wrote:
Everyone who solos, dies. Boromir? Dead. Gollum? Dead. Frodo? Would have died but Sam wouldn't let that n00b solo.”

Off topic but LOL a friend mentioned also that Gandalf died soloing also, but he was lucky enough to get a rez.

ARCHIVED-deaks · Mar 8, 2006

“Xney wrote:
deaks,

I would be interested in knowing if using CAs interrupts (restarts) the auto-attack timer, or if auto-attacks can accumulate and go off when the CA does.

Does anybody know? For Rangers it could be very significant.”

I'd be interested as well but don't have any time to test, what I will do is pose the question to a dev and see if there is any response.

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