Im a lvl 60 zerker who tanks for a raid guild who does T6 stuff 5 of 7 nights a week. I am the preferred tank on most encounters. We dont do the uber end game stuff yet, but I have tanked Gates of Ahket Ahken, Court of Al'Afaz and Silent City epics since the expansion came out on a regular basis. On multiple mob encounters, its just so easy to get and maintain agro. On single targets I still struggle, but really only the paladins dont have issues as far as taunt goes. Our main SK seems to fair a bit better on single target taunting, but hey, I cant have everything. I think our only issue is taunt resist rates currently. And that goes for all tank types. Once again I think we need another line of shield bashes that has a monster taunt attached to it. Different timer from Press. Put 1k-1500 agro on it, and I wont have to apologize to all the mage/scouts when they have to repair twice as much as the rest. Normally, I'd say its their own fault, but we use Teamspeak, and when I tell them they can turn up the dps a little, invariably someone gets over zealous. I feel bad, but I do it again next pull anyway.../cackle.
True, all things being equal, that is. The relative level of the mob and the tank is significant also, just as it is for "To Hit" probability.
I was happy to see this post up. I've just joined a raiding guild, so I haven't tanked that many epic mobs.. however, I know that, with the right group and situation zerkers are every bit as capable as any other tank. On regular occassion, I would tank for a Zerk/Brig/Temp trio and we could clear just about anything we put our mind to. Many guilds I think are still using guards because that's what they are comfortable with.. and there is nothing wrong with this. Guards can normally successfully tank just about anything, However, it probably (as all zerkers know), isn't the best use of resources. Being in any other role than MT for grouped mobs seriously ***** us (and warlocks) since we can't do what we do best (AE damage and aggro). I've actuall thought that guards would be much better in a role to protect the MT. Every tank other than a guard excels in one area or another over a guard, but lacks the mitigation, HP, and defense of a guard. (i.e. avoidance for brawlers, damage and group aggro for zerkers, single mob aggro for crusaders). One of the biggest complaints I heard from guards after the combat revamp was that many of their new arts were protection buffs for their group and that if they were doing their job, the group wouldn't need protection buffs. It makes sense to me that, if SoE was trying to balance the classes, they would have one of their 'master plans' as to what they considered the ultimate raid configuration. The way I see it, those group protection buffs would come in awful handy in the MT group with one of the other tank types MTing. Mixed with the Templar and Inq buffs i think just about any tank type could probably hit most of their caps. In the case of Zerkers as well, any guardians in the raid would could keep their intercede on the MT to absorb hits (in some cases, this would be the equivilent of around a 5,000 point heal. Being in a group with a zerker means that you have accelerated regen, so by the time the next intercept is ready (1 min 40 sec) most guards will have regened the last hit off already. Hell I have a ton of thought on the usefulness of zerkers... but it's like 3am and I am rambling now. At any rate, to answer the OP, hang in there bud. At some point we will be useful. Maybe ask your guild leader to give you a chance with some grouped mobs.. then show them what a zerker can do! Message Edited by SugarGirl on 12-14-2005 03:59 AM
Hey guys, I have a couple questions about Zerkers MTing in raids. 1) Do wards interfere with the taunt procs from Taunting Defense and Insolent Gibe? The spell discription says that it can proc when you are damaged, so I was wondering if it counts if you are warded. I looked over some of my logs but wards arent broadcasted to where I could see them - however on all the procs from Taunting Defense I did see where he took damage immediately before the proc. 2) What do you like to see in your MT group? I usually like Templar/Warden/Defiler/Dirge + MT + Conjuror, but if wards effect your hate gain adversely would it be better to replace the Defiler with a Guardian for more HP and Def? Thanks for any info,
Zerker, Temp, Inq, Brigand, Assassin, Coercer As far as wards. I pretty sure they don't interfere with counter procs. The reason beeing that if you have a 500 HP ward, and a mob attacks and deals a 250 hp blow, then your ward is reduced by 250 hp. That sounds like a hit to me. I haven't tried this yet to see, but it would make sense that they wouldn't interfere. A Message Edited by SugarGirl on 12-14-2005 09:45 AM
Thanks for the reply:smileyhappy: Hmm that seems an odd MT group. The Inq would only add a little STA, and a dps buff that would go well in a Melee DPS group the brigand doesnt have any buffing utility, the assassin has a hate transfer - but not as good as a Dirge's and apply poison which would be good on a zerker or brawler the Coercer has mana regen and hate transfer that isnt as good as a Dirges , hate dps buff that would go better on a scout Of course this is only looking at the buffing aspect of it though. Message Edited by Eirgorn on 12-14-2005 01:09 PM
OK I looked through my log again and found several spots that looked like this: (1134535420)[Tue Dec 13 23:43:40 2005] a royal stalker hits Zerker01 but fail to inflict any damage. (1134535420)[Tue Dec 13 23:43:40 2005] Zerker01 tries to confound a royal stalker with Insolent Gibe, but a royal stalker resists. Failed to inflict damage would show up when it was warded right?
1) Within the first month of DoF, wards did in-fact hinder our taunting defense. I haven't confirmed if it still does, i know they have done several changes for Shamans in recent patchs so this may have been resolved. 2) meh, different encounters different MT group setups. In regards to what Berserkers bring to raids. We off-tank better then most, since we can grab agro better then almost any classes besides perhaps Monks. We can MT, but unfortunately Guardians are more specifically designed to. We can provide excellant buffs for dps classes. We also provide decent dps on single targets, and in the top-3 on multi-mob encounters (every 3 minutes of course ). There are many other uses for a berserker in a raid, these are just the typical roles we fill. Stats wise: All stats are important. I also beleive INT does actually affect our resist rates. I also beleive our taunts are Mental based, so mental resistant mobs resist our taunts more often. INT will of course still be the last stat i actively look for, sta/agi/wis/str/int, in that order. Since raid stats is completely subjective to the quality of the buffers (adept1-master1?) and the MT group setup, i'll just list my self buffed (non-temp buffs, no potions, and only sta/agi rings) stats. Defensive stance: 3692 mitigation, 48.5% avoidance, 5986 hps. Message Edited by Mjollnyr on 12-14-2005 02:30 PM
Since I don't feel like reading all of the usual garbage that is replied... forgive me if I repeat some things. 1.) Berserkers can raid tank T6 mobs easily. So can SK's, Guardians, Pally's. Brawlers seem to be very flaky so I don't pick them. They don't get hit often, but when they do... good lord. 2.) Berserkers aren't that good of DPS? Where the hell did that come from? I know multiple berserkers that can dish out between 500-600 DPS in a sustained fight. Anyways, take it or leave it... berserkers can DPS and Tank. Still. --Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server
Ok sorry if my point #2 was a bit misleading. I was trying to get some feedback on encounters where a Berserker would be the MT. So you could have Zerker / 3 healers / Dirge / Open Slot - where the open slot could be a Guard for more MIT + HP, or a mage for resists, or an assassin with apply poison and hate transfer (not sure if that would stack properly with the dirges +% to MT hate though - Ive heard it can get buggy) as one option. Are there any classes you just love having in the MT group with you? My guild has a 60 zerker that is relatively new to the MT role - but he has been doing really well against some x4 named we've run into and I just want to make sure we flesh out his MT group well. Oh yeah, he does great DPS too - even when MT'ing :smileyhappy: Thanks for the replies!
good MT group, Temp/Ward/Dirge/Mystic/SK or Pally. and then who ever you have tanking... be it Gaurdian or Zerker.
Thanks for the reply Hmm that seems an odd MT group. The Inq would only add a little STA, and a dps buff that would go well in a Melee DPS group the brigand doesnt have any buffing utility, the assassin has a hate transfer - but not as good as a Dirge's and apply poison which would be good on a zerker or brawler the Coercer has mana regen and hate transfer that isnt as good as a Dirges , hate dps buff that would go better on a scout Of course this is only looking at the buffing aspect of it though. Message Edited by Eirgorn on 12-14-200501:09 PM Bah My bad.... I was thinking regular group.. in which case I stick to my original post. For a raid group, I don't think there really is a do all be all MT group. Raid groups are dependant on many factors, including Mob Types, Mob attacks, grouped or ungrouped, and what you have for the other groups. If your only goal is to stay alive, then it's easy. Zerker, Guard, Temp, Inq, Warden, Fury. But if you are trying to keep aggro on multiple mobs with Warlocks in the raid, that won't work. You'll need mana regen so you can spam your nukes to keep aggro (Insolent Gibe alone won't maintain aggro against warlocks). If you have a single target mob with a ton of hitpoints... switch the zerker out and put him in the scout group. Move a Pally/Guard or Guard/Monk combo to the MT group. The one thing I honestly think of raids groups is (and some may disagree) you should never depend on just one tank. All of the tank classes have abilities that keep each other alive. One thing is true of raid groups though.. it is all dependant on who you have and what you are fighting.. there is no perfect group.
Im confused on the issue of group vs single target taunting ability. Doesnt all the group taunt skills/abilities work on single targets?
The difference lay in Reinforcement vs. Insolent Gibe. Reinforcement (The guardian spell) requires the guardian to hit a single target and inflict a large amount of threat with 1 priority increase. Insolent Gibe requires the creatures to hit the Berserker in order for it to sustain aggro... thusly, berserkers hold a large number of readily swinging creatures far better, since the guardian would have to move between the creatures. --Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server
Most Guardians hit Reinforcement and then use an AE attack to get threat and +1 priority on multiple mobs.
I'll double check, but I believe it supposed to be only a melee attack, so if it's function via AE it more than likely is bugged and will be fixed eventually. In any event, Guardians don't get a fair number of AE's and threat priority +1 and 352 threat at Master 1 means diddly squat. A warlock with Precision of the Maestro and Aria of Exaltation cranking on him will destroy a Guardian's chance at holding the aggro. --Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server
A melee attack doesn't necessarily mean autoattack. You probably have an AE that does melee damage. AFAIK, most fighter classes have at least one that comes from the Whirl line of arts.
Guardian - 52 - Reinforcement - Increases the hate position of the guardian for every enemy the guardian successfully attacks. Berserker - 52 - Insolent Gibe - Increases the hate of all enemies near the berserker. Additionally, when taking damage there is a chance to increase the hate of all enemies in an encounter
I have been reading all these posts and can not wait to get to a point to where I understand what all this means. at lvl 23 one taunt will usually suffice for a fight . Aside from that thanks to all the people that put up these posts and prepare young Zerkers like myself for the future. Your like mentors or teachers :robotvery-happy:
