despite recent changes, tank changes in particular, have you all been suddenly gated and unable to do what you were able to do prior to changes? I am not saying being a little upset is unwarranted, however, have you all tried tanking post changes? I get it, you farmed gear to get to where you were and now you need to rethink your items. We're only 3 or so weeks into the expansion and you have been done gearing for the most part. There is a lot if time left in RoK, 3+ months, and I am almost certain there will be another itemization pass. My point is I think there is some over reacting going on. I can see if you were tanking instances and suddenly you cannot take a single hit without a death save or needing a rez there would be a huge issue. But what can you not do now that you were doing before out of curiosity? Other than seeing higher stat values (HP/MIT)what has changed for you and how do you think the items should look in order for you to succeed? I am a scout and I had to change gear too. I lost 9k+ hp and other inflated stats (which I had back up gear to get to where I was) so I understand some frustration/confusion. I would like to understand what this changes for tanks other than numbers. What mobs can you not tank? do you need 3 healers to MT raids now? are you no longer able to survive as an off tank?
A lot to unpack there, here we go: have you all been suddenly gated and unable to do what you were able to do prior to changes? Yes. We are unable to accomplish what we could before. Now, maybe we were a bit over powered to do some things, but we expected the nerf bat and we expected the itemization, we all knew it. That is totally OK!!! Kander did a great job explaining what was going to happen, all is good. But what can you not do now that you were doing before out of curiosity? A lot less. Because of the removal of most of the mitigation stats, or health, and a massive loss of offensive skills means tanks will hit weak, not generate as much threat, and get hit really really hard. I mean really hard. what has changed for you and how do you think the items should look in order for you to succeed? I'll explain in a sec. What mobs can you not tank? do you need 3 healers to MT raids now? are you no longer able to survive as an off tank? Not sure on what we can't tank yet, Yes, 3 healers will be a must if it stays, and off tanks will have it even harder. So let me explain what happened Venser as a valued member of our general chat We love you! Kander posted a great write up on what was going to happen, where half of our stats would disappear and gear that was NOT TANK gear would not have mit, and TANK GEAR with offensive stats would lose the offensive stats. This was ok, we knew it was coming and it was completely acceptable to everyone in my raid force. I am the main tank. However... what happened was a massive clean out of all mitigation and health gear. Heroic level 3 gear was supposed to have 2 blue stats, (consider Pot and CC standard on all gear). Heroic level 1 would have 1 blue stat, (probably health and mit). When we got in today, almost ALL gear was changed from defensive stats to offensive stats and all the mit and health is gone. So scouts can't even gain health gear in offensive, which is a tough break. For tanks, everything that was "Defensive stats" and I mean defensive, was massively changed to offensive. Therefore, tanks went from 31k HP down to 18-19k HP, MIT went from 7k to 5.2k, and everyone scrambled to get mitigation gear. Guess what? hard to find. There just isn't enough out there anymore, WAY WAY TOO much got changed to offensive. Our most beloved ROK item, Shackles of the Court went from defensive to completely offensive. Now Venser, the real problem. All of the raid gear expecting to have 2 blue stats has only 1 extra. That's it. So it was not done according to their own plan which is why everyone is in an uproar and over reacting. Providing they fix it, everyone will calm down and all will be well. If they leave it as, you are looking at the end of Kaladim in a lot of people's eyes. I will certainly keep playing, as will most of our guild, so we will see you in chat Hope that helps!
I think the frustration stems from the time invested into farming specific items, or taking specific collection rewards and now the majority of those items are essentially useless for tanks. Not arguing against the concept of heavily reducing secondary stats, but I feel this patch would have felt less awkward day 1 RoK, not 3 weeks into it. Depending on the character / player, potentially dozens of hours of farming have been wasted. That never feels good.
As tanks, we never had great options for collectibles rewards, but I definitely would not have chosen the way I did if I had known, we all expected the nerfbat to those, but not completely change 80% of the defensive gear we farmed into offensive useless gear on a tank. That part is just crazy. I'm looking forward to the next few days when they have a chance to review all the feedback and dive into what happened, hoping a good fix for that is coming.
Yep, I've had many guildies very upset at the amount of time spent farming gear or plat to buy gear that is now completely useless.
Best bet is to just hold onto as much gear as you can, further adjustments are coming down the pipeline.
I don't think anybody wanted to leave fighters as weak as a mage , it takes a long time but maybe tomorrow most of us will be at least ok with what ever we will have , I mean when the hunter items came out way over powered and were toned down people were complaining too so any reasonable adjustment should be acceptable.
I don't think anyone has been in long enough with the downtime to see. However, our guildie had issues in Chardok just getting to the updates without two healers. But, that was without rebuilding themselves. I have built back up to 24.9k self buffed, 5.9k mit, 11k avoid and 39.7% block chance. 86 AB Mod, less than 20-30 all offensive good stuff. GOing to be challenging, but hoping they fix a few of the items.
I think some may be missing the importance of this change. Set bonuses were never instated: Too tough to balance. Raid gear was, with rare exception, 0.1 to 0.2 better than heroic, mitigating the reason to bother. But now all gear has been reduced to a simplistic formula that is +1 blue stat for solo and +2 for heroic, raid, and mythical. Aside from levels and AAs that simply come with time, the game is mostly a chase for gear. Selecting and stacking gear bonuses was the challenging bit. But the interesting gear has been smoothed away; it has been reduced to a formula such that piece x is interchangeable with y and z. I am surprised that gear with procs still exists, as it must seem as wild a variable as set bonuses. The new formula is a vastly easier algorithm for itemization in the absence of curation, yet exquisitely boring for players. So, yes, you may be able to still kill stuff. The reward is universal potency, crit chance, +1 or +2 blue stat loot.
Vesner, I like you and I respect a few people in your guild, but what you are saying only pertains to the elite top 2, maybe 3 guilds on the server. The other guilds trying to raid content have to have 3 healers in the MT group no matter what. Even on T1 raids. They are not geared out with Avatar loot and none of them have a Myth and probably won't see it for a long time. So the stupid changes to gear did severely impact many of the guilds here who wanted to at least try to do some raiding. Didn't effect really in shared dungeons or instances, but is was a massive blow to raids. Without +mit/hp for tanks and some +hp for other classes, the AE's the mobs in raids currently put out will wreck people. A lot of these guilds will have to run a shaman in every single group for the wards. The problem in the past is a lot of Treasured gear was better than Fabled. How the heck this was overlooked it beyond me. The best fix would of lowered some of the damage output on some raid mobs, fix the hps on others (which thankfully they did) and bump up some of the raid gear. The raid gear really needs improving. You fight so damn hard, unless you are one of the top 2 guilds, and you get something that may or may not replace your level 70-72 treasured gear.
The whole thing feels like a garbled communication between the players and the developers. Frustration is aired because items have inappropriate stats (e.g. mit and offensive skills on cloth) and because treasured loot is out of line. Instead of targeting those specific issues, they launch sweeping itemization clearly intended as a balance pass. TLE is supposed to be nostalgic fun. Nobody's here looking for challenge mode. There's no 5-day/week competitive progression raiding (although there might be if it were a race server). Hell, there's not even anything special about Kaladim. We had tokens and milestone rewards on RTT, heritage vouchers on SH, collection vouchers on FG. Just let the players faceroll and enjoy themselves for 3 months before more content shows up. Let them have hope that mythicals are accessible to most. Stop forcing an uphill combat battle when no one was complaining about imbalance. All anyone asked for was the itemization to make sense.
No one in Reformed had a mythical when they first cleared this content, they actually had less than cap AA's and worse gear than guilds who went in a few days later/a week later even to start raiding. Avatar gear is null now, a generic piece from sebilis is on par or better in just about every case. Giving tanks massive amounts of +max health/mit increase is a big mistake to begin with. This severely ruins entire classes like crusaders and ruins class balance between healers due to the high HP pools compared to wards/reactives etc. People forget that in RoK/TSO everyone ran 2-3 or 4 tanks even and they bounced agro/used temps. Having a three tank group setup wasn't uncommon. It wasn't until SF I think we ran our SK in a one healer setup with a fury/conj full time because of conj percussion. I don't remember tank gear having max health on it until CoE or ToV on live. 2012/2013/2014. Even then it was sparing and not as high as a tanks max health +% in EoF on TLE. TSO I distinctly remember having three shamans, same with ROK, EOF and KoS. If you're having issues with AoE's on T1 encounters even it's because this is the first time content hasn't been tankable by a illusionist and players are having to learn raiding 101 such as distance to the mob, curing properly, maintaining proper reactives/wards, paying attention etc.
I'm going to stop you right there. I am calling BS on the worse gear part. I know that guild was fully decked out with Avatar loot. To say it wasn't is ignorant. Sure might of had less AA's, but had everything else to make it happen. As far as Avatar gear is null now, I am calling BS on that as well. It's still some of the best stuff out there. This I will agree with that giving tanks a ton of HP's was a mistake. Well giving everyone a lot was in general. But with the AE's being overtuned, this was almost a necessity. Mit? Heck no. The damage output on this stuff can be insane. Sure it needs some tweeking, but unless you have really good gear, surviving will be an issue. Even Intensive has said some of this stuff is now untankable.
Yes that's true for the original days of the game but TLE is not balanced around the original game. The raid encounters are currently balanced around tanks having max hp/mit in almost every slot, so either leave the gear how it is (with less offensive skills on defensive gear) or otherwise re-balance raid content around the fact tank stats are now hard to come by.
You don't need any +max health/mit to clear up to milyex in VP atm. If you're having issues I don't know what to say, bots were two grouping content beforehand. I watched a tank hit a 75% avoidance report in VP last night without an offtank to intercept/superior guard or even give them their tank avoidance. This is with a two healer MT group as well. I don't know what to say. You can have hunker down/battle cry up at any point you're not dragoons/gsphere/tower of stoned. Mitigation stops being useful at around 6-7k at the moment. The difference in incoming on the named hitting our scout was a 5k difference (21k to 16k average) and that's with a 5k mitigation difference and 10% DR because guardian myth/defensive stance etc. I can get my mystic up to around 23k hp currently with my growth staff proc, bolster, and my generic stamina buffs with zero max health gear. That's enough HP. The only avatar pieces that are worth wearing currently is the mage aoe avoid ear (if you need to not get hit), the crit robe (for an extra +20 crit for 5 seconds), and the growth staff assuming you're a main tank mystic. The stoneskin boots are cool too I guess but extremely unnecessary. Even the brawler weapon from fear isn't as good because the dodge applies to both the templar for shield ally and the brawler themselves. You also can't strikethrough a uncontested dodge and dodge rolls first in the avoidance lineup. The scout ear is useless, reuse wrist, all shoulders, robe of al'kabor is just a mythical icon in your inspect window, cleric gear is useless now, etc. etc. See above on mitigation. I remember back when raiding required two healers in a mage group, or people running resist adorns/health adorns. Countersong, timing blockers, porcupine, etc. etc. I'm doubtful a lot of guilds are even utilizing these/even understand they exist and they are needed to clear content.
Let me be clear on my stance on tanks. I raid main tank to support 23 other people doing their job. I don't need to DPS on my tank, however, it's what they provided us, gear with MIT/Health, oh, and let's throw in some MA and Cast speed for you too. I get it, they wanted to balance. I am so completely cool with the nerfbat. They already said they were going to look at it, so I am not worried. I just want the 2 blue stats they said they would put on the gear.I just want the defensive gear choices, which there are a few, but not many. I can still tank with what they have provided, but require a bit more heals. But in no way, am I upset because I can't DPS anymore, that was just something I enjoyed because it was in game. Just like everyone enjoyed their few weeks of 200plus ABMod and 80 primary stats, I enjoyed being strong and supporting the DPS. I'll gladly request my mitigation back now and hand you my extra MA/CS/REuse/ABMOD and DPS... thank you.
I mean that's great and all but my point still holds true. Content has been balanced around tanks having lots of hp/mit, whether they actually need it or not is another discussion. I know Reformed will find a way around the nerf and be fine, which means everyone else probably just needs to git gud. It just sucks that no other guild is able to give Reformed a good challenge, since the rest of the talent on the server is spread out amongst multiple guilds.
Also dont for get that the nerf has not hit reformed as hard as the other lesser raiding guilds as they have there myths before the nerf its the rest off us that now have to struggle with this change
