I'm one of those people telling I'd drop my armour to keep my dps, but it's not for raiding because during raids I can hardly ever spam my attacks and go full out on the main mob (only on adds when I'm MA).. because when I do, I'm 100% sure the mobs turns away from the MT and starts hitting me. And even though our Guardian takes aggro back very quickly, that 1-2 second timespan in which the mob turns towards me , some people who are standing next to me (all melee classes) might get riposted and die.. and that's not something you want to happen ). So I tone down my dmg output on raids.. The reason I want my DPS and don't mind wearing lighter armour is for normal grouping.. armour doesn't really matter that much in that situation, but DPS does.. Take care
I do like the aura idea. However, if we can get away with no changes, I'd like that too. Personally, I don't feel uber, but I don't really feel **** either. Sure, I'd like to get some utility stuff like... well... all the other fighters (save Guardians), but... I'm happy the way things are now. Berserkers do not need more defense. We are fine now, and outside of raides, we can tank just fine. That, and we are supposed to be the offense side of the warrior coin. And, we don't need more offense. Scouts are suppose to be bigger DPS. We don't need to infringe on that ground. But, as far as fighters go, we should be in the middle. I feel sorry for monks. They do get a lot of cool utility stuff, and heals, and high avoidance. But, when they get hit, they get hit hard. So, I don't feel bad at all about them doing more damage. The way I see berserkers now, and would like to continue seeing them is, a good, all around class. We can tank well and we can pass as DPS. Now, I don't mean to be rude here, but, for those that think Berserkers should be better tanks, role a Guardian or Paladin. If you think we should encroach on scoutdom, make a monk, bruiser, or scout. That being said... we don't really have a lot going for us oterwise. We can fill many roles, but, aren't the best at anything. We don't get any of the things other fighters get, like evac, heals, feign death, or safe fall. So, before Sony things about nerfing us, maybe they should give us something worth nerfing.
Im sorry but if u want to wear light armour while doing high damage and still being a fighter class just make a freaking monk or Bruiser
I could see it for Brigands (can't really say Swashies cause I dont play one) In small groups I can actually do the tank job surprisingly well, and to my knowledge Rogues are the only one of the Scouts with actual taunt abilities. For instance, Ability: Cuss, only thing it does is increase hate for the brigand by XXX points, and also maddening shot, its the only ranged CA they get and it launches 2 arrows that do high damage with "Increase hate by 300" or something like that. And the high damage attack they get, the front positional attack Ruse, also has associated with it "Increase Threat position by 1" That being said, I'd have to vote Monks and bruisers getting a clicky ability to switch from offense to defense before a berserker. It just makes more sense to me since they rely on stances and attention to avoid being beat up (in theory anyway) so the fighting style when they dont have to worry about being hit would change most significantly.
I guess another way to put it is: Why not have 4 skills, that take concentration, and when used give you the abilities of another archetype. Because that is really what you are asking. Aura: DPS like a scout. Normal: Tank like a zerker. Healer: Heal like a priest Caster: Nuke like a caster. It just does away with having to make subclass choices for the playstyle you want to have a buff that allows you to do another classes job. I think its a horrible idea, but that's just me.
The thing is, Berserkers were always described as having abilities that lower their defense for increased offense. Originally I think this was suppose to be the berserk effect, but they never had the decreased defense applied. If Sony INSISTS on upping our defense and lowering our damage output (or at least bringing us more on par with Guardians), then it would at least be nice if they threw a bone to us players that played a Berserker for the reasons that Berserkers were around. As of right now (before any changes) we seem pretty close to that for the most part. The problem is that it appears we are being too closely paired with the Guardian. It was laid out like this: Warrior - base; middle ground Guardian - diverges from Warrior by focusing on defense Berserker - diverges from Warrior by focusing on offense With the upcoming changes, a Guardian that focus on damage will outdamage a Berserker that focuses on defense. What they don't state (and we must assume) is that a Berserker that focuses on defense should out tank a Guardian that focuses on damage. Lets hope this is true anyway. In theory though, the Guardian (who's skill set is defense oriented) that focuses on damage should balance himself out and bring him back towards the center to equal the Berserker (who's skill set is offense oriented) that focused on defense. Essentially, they should both bring themselves to the center where their core Warrior abilities reside. Lumping Berserkers and Guardians by saying, "well they're both warriors anyway" defeats the purpose of having seperate classes in the first place.
Gage please...your personal crusade against zerkers and anything that is proposed for them is getting real tiresome.. where do you see berserkers ask for a heal or nuke switch? The OP just came up with an idea to cater for all zerkers. Some people choose a zerker because they would be able to tank while dealing ok dmg. Other people choose a zerker because the description said we would be able to dish out dmg. Maybe SOE should just rename the berserker subclass because the way we are going is nowhere near a berserker. And why would I need to choose a backstabber :smileywink: when I want to do DPS.. I want to do it from the front and up close.. One thing I would like to know though is how Sony intends of calculating the DPS.. is it while soloing? while grouped? This could mean a big difference because scout classes could never unleash there full DPS potential when soloing (same as sorcs, now that they have their roots reduced).. only when they can use all their sneak/positional attacks are they able to reach their full DPS potential (which is fine by me btw..) Gage, you are in one of the guilds that are copied over to test I think.. once the full combat changes are in effect on test, will you come here and tell us about them Take care
We have a few zerkers, so maybe they will. I'm not against zerkers at all, I have good friends in game that are zerkers, I just think you guys need to be more realistic about your tradeoffs, since you are the second best tank in the game.
**warning, this turns into a semi-rant, I usually just hit back and don't post a message when this happens, but I am going to this time** Ok, the big problem isn't what we were sold on, or originally intended to be, ect. The big problem is what we are now versus what we won't be in the future. We can be DPS now, we can Tank now, heck we can even do both half decently at the same. So right now we can do one or the other, this is what the berserker is, this is what we have become and what we expect now of an EQ2 berserker, but now we are told we have to be a tank, after we spent all this time to get to 50 and make our characters what we want, we have to fit one role out of the two we could fit. I guess the thing that hurts is just that rerolling would really be a pain for me, I now have invested several platinum into this character that I cannot get back since I can't sell my armor or unscribe my adept III's, am a guild patron and am not willing to add another patron and stop contributing status to level up a new char. And now I am faced with the delemia of continueing to sink money into a class I won't be happy with, or starting all over hoping my next choice won't result in the same thing. I choose a zerker because I thought it would be like a Dark Knight from FFXI, use big weapons to do big damage, not the absolute best, I understood that, but better then most considering the lack of utility and the general concept. Because we are often considered tanks I haven't grouped much and was happy I could solo well and contribute to a raid w/o tanking, now that this is being forced upon me as the only role I can efficiently fill I feel like I should cut my losses now. And the most annoying thing is I have no idea if that is even a good idea, what if the whole combat thing isn't how it sounds and suddenly zerkers are decent dps and I have wasted time making a new character when I could have been doing writs, more quests, ect. .../sigh, whatever
hehe gage its samoth, u changed to foh! i mean i havent played in forever but still read up everyonce and awhile, your kinda a celebrity on these forums lol.
dont mean to hijack the thread but ill tell ledard and enoch u said hi fer kix, maybe its the everclear kickin in but i remember when we were all newbs !!!!
[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is your problem Gage? Oh wait i forgot, your a monk and you arent really getting nerfed in these combat changes since your avoidance tanking will be addressed and yet you will still have good dps.... People were being creative and wanted to throw out some ideas on maybe giving a berserker a role.... You comming on here and posting just makes you look like an idiot.............. I always thought you were a sensable person until this.... but then again i should have expected it from a person who has no life an loves to pad his post count.....
HAHAHAHAHA! You think we aren't getting changed? Yeah right. Trust me I'm more worried than you guys are about the combat and spell changes. What has happened in 7 months to make me think SOE knows how to code avoidance? Nothing. Besides, we stand to lose a lot more than you, and I'm sure you know that. Your class is the second best tank in the game, same mitigation as guardians and probably the best aggro production. Even if they nerf your DPS to guardian level (they won't) you'd still be able to tank everything in this game that a guardian can after the broken defense/hp stacking is fixed. But us... we'll always have sucky mitigation, we'll also have lower hp, we'll always wear light armor... etc. *IF* they do not actually give us workable defense when they take our DPS, we're pretty screwed. Now I'm not saying that they'll ruin my class, but I'm saying monks/bruisers are in a pretty tight spot, thank you very much. That said I also realize that being able to tank (routine group mobs) from 1 to 50 while scouts can't, and then damaging as good or better than scouts is broken, and needs to be fixed. I'm not going to sit here and act like our damage isn't at least a little bit over powered just because I'm afraid of how the changes will play out, because for all of my friends who play scouts sake, the changes need to be made. Fair is fair, and the general rule in this game is that you gain dps when you sacrifice defense. I understand people were being creative, and I was commenting on their ideas, because this is a message forum by the way. I think a "switch" or "buff" that moves you from substantial tanking to substantial dps is probably a little broken, if only because you shouldn't outdamage us, let alone scouts. Which is why I made the example of scouts getting a switch to go from tanks to dps. If its good for one class, it should be good for all of them. As for making myself look like an idiot... opinions vary I suppose, but you are certainly intitled to yours. As for the insult, you know I always thought you were better than that. I doubt you can reasonably assume anything about the status of my irl life by my posts or my post count. If you can you are probably a lot more insightful than most people I suppose. Besides, ever see the NGD forum? Plenty of game posts in there if I feel like padding my post count sir, and in there I don't have to try to make sense or type near as much. But thank you for once again taking time out of your day to address me. I feel privelaged that so many of you posters express such animosity towards me but yet take the time to post in my direction, so often. If anything, I should blame posts like yours for padding my post count, as my pet peeve is certainly trying to have the last word
So, what ideas do you have for berserkers gage? Other than trying to shoot down others ideas, I haven't seen you contribute much positive here lately. If you look at the descriptions of the classes, I think Berserkers should have better dps than monks. Monks are the defensive of their tree, and berserkers are the offensive of their tree. So, you want to have the same defensive capabilities as berserkers, but you should have better dps? why? And don't even bring up the fact that berserkers are the 2nd best tank, because we are talking about after the combat changes. The order of tanks right now means nothing, they are supposed to be correcting stuff, and putting us in the right order. Almost every argument I see about why berserkers shouldn't have good dps after the combat changes, is because we are the 2nd best tank before the combat changes. Why can't we have skills that lower our defense and increase our dps? it fits our class description. Why is it that every other class thinks their class should be boosted to match the description sony gave, but berserkers shouldn't because it would be unfair to everyone else? What's unfair is that after the combat changes, some classes will match their description and others won't. Besides, there is already a class that will have the ability to switch from a dps mode to a tank mode, granted they are more in the middle of the pack for both. But if they can do it, why can't berserkers switch from tank mode to dps mode and move up the ranks a bit? Not past the scouts, but why not past all of the fighters? Again, read the descriptions of the classes.
Honestly I think they should abandon the "archetype definitions" as they are stiffling alot of classes potential. Enchanters want DPS because they are mages, and mages get DPS, but to be honest I think they would be far happier if they weren't DPS at all but got useful CC abilities, debuffs and buffs that didn't require half there concentration (i mean player concentration at that). Meanwhile you have Berserkers, who are to be made tanks, because they are fighters and all fighters are tanks and scouts who can't tank at all, because scouts can't be tanks by definition. I really would actually love to see more duality in the classes, where a berserker could be decent DPS (although easily out done by the top half of mage and scouts) OR a pretty good tank (but not the absolute best) Perhaps Berserkers and Brusiers giving up there defenses could reach as hIgh in DPS as say an average Brigand, and maybe a Brigand, giving up a significant protion of his DPS could be as good a tank as an average Berserker or Bruiser could be. Maybe an Inquisitor neglecting healing could be as good as CC as an average coercer should be, and a coercer giving up CC could be as good a DPS as a the average summoner, etc... Maybe this is actually how it is going to be. Why does there need to be 25% of the classes dedicated to such a small role as tanking? Honestly on a raid you need 2 tanks at best, 4 healers and an enchanter and a bunch of DPS, heck some raids you can use 1 tank, 2 healers and just DPS if you are good. Maybe there are raids I haven't encountered yet that require lots of tanks but there are more tank classes then there needs to be, especially in a raid when you really only need 1 and Berserkers are gonna be pretty much the worst tanks among the tanks meanng it is highly likely a Berserker won't be a tank. The problem is we don't know what is gonna happen, but we know what we don't want to happen, that we become a useless class. Alot of the worries aren't because we think we know what is going to happen, but because we have no clue at all, the damage classes or whatever thing that was made is vague and about as useful as a dictionary definition is to assembling a nuclear reactor. We feel like Pippin said in the Lord of the Rings "I don't want to be in a battle. But waiting on the edge of one I can't escape is even worse." We don't want to change, but are willing to because we must, the worse part is that this has been drug out so long and we still have no idea at all if we are going to fit the roll we want of our class. And not just Berserkers, every class is still in the dark and as such can only complain about there percieved conclusion (which is worst case due to shell shock from all the bugs, nerfs and stealth nerfs) of this change because they have no solid information on the changes so as to make suggestions that are actually meaningful and informative. Edit: some structure changes Message Edited by Ralluwen on 07-01-2005 07:50 AM
I am one of the biggest proponents of sacrifices from my class to gain what I feel we need. I'm on no crusade to be overpowered... but it looks like someone is. Oh yeah, and I never said I wanted to be as defensive as a berserker, you assumed that. I already know that we won't be. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 07-01-2005 10:55 AM
You know what Gage you like to say that we should get over the Description of our class because it was only for Lore and Fluff........ Your a fool, it was for marketing each class on how the "dreamed" it would be, look at the skill set for a berserker, it has dps written all over it, proc based attacks, counter attack buff etc etc, you cant say Berserkers weren't built for dps tanking ( at least they made a half a.s.s.e.d attempt in making a berserker compared to the debacle that was eq1 berserker { yes i had a lvl 70 Zerker as well, we didnt know if we were dps or a tank , that is how scrwed up they were } ) what was that you say again? class descriptions were only for FLUFF AND LORE ? Goodness at least McQuaid and Team making Vanguard aren't lying about the classes for that game and are being upfront on how they are being developed ( thank god its at beta 0 stage now ) You want to talk about agro generation, for a long time i believed we were kings of agro till i saw how a Guardian at 50 is played... lets see TWO AE TAUNTS ( one of which has a 250+ threat lead over every other tank in the game ) FIVE unlinked single target taunts, slows and stifles.... that right there is agro generation..... ( thank god you cant use the Guard Lvl 50 AE taunt on ^^^ mobs ) Defense eh? lets see our stance gets over written by guardian defense buffs, our 3 min defense buffs slows our attack rate by 20% ( oh it doesnt stack with our stance also ) the only buff we have worth while is our parry buff for defense .............. our Buff that gives us a chance to counter attack when hit poofs after 15 procs ( its a 15 min self btw's ) yeah we are overpowered in dps mode ( but wait no one asks an average lvl 50 berserker how much their dps is in tank mode ) Oh and no need to answer this post with a 2 page essay that isnt really saying anything because you still are a fool for comming here and bashing other peoples ideas.... I'm done with this thread , Have a good day gage
I didn't say it Moorgard did, and I only wrote a few paragraphs. But that said I hope the class gets changed in a way that is fair to everyone and still fun to play, whether you like to play offensively or defensively. I have no ill will towards anyone.
