Power of Dragons

Discussion in 'History and Lore' started by ARCHIVED-Amana, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Amana Guest

    I agree there and if you want to say its a loophole that is "technically" true because yes in a sense Darathar is commanding his minions to do so however you can disavou *sp* that knowledge saying you did not say so with your minions acting upon their own accord.
    Actually upon reviewing what Vhalen wrote that cannot be Tarinax Skeleton since Vhalen does say the his body was placed there by ___ . As for what ____ is I have no idea because that lore must lie in EQ1 history beyond what i'm thinking of or it could lie in EQOA history since it says he built a citadel close to a village.
    Before Tarinax could be captured by his masters, he would be slain by a mortal using _____ called _____. This was no doubt a better ending to his life. The Claws of Veeshan would not have destroyed him, but whatever punishment they would have executed would have been far worse than death. Tarinax's soul ____ upon his death. Although the whereabouts of his soul are unknown, his body now resides in Deathtoll, most likely placed there by ____, to be used as ____.
    My only question is who is Najeena and maybe that dragon skeleton could be her's.
  2. ARCHIVED-Zhek Guest

    Najena would be a zone back in EQL off of Lavastorm and named after the Dark Elf that controlled the place. She is seen here.
    Message Edited by Zhek on 05-05-2006 08:04 PM
  3. ARCHIVED-xbraindeadx Guest

    Im pretty sure that skeleton belongs to Scorchwing or Tirranun.

    they are both dragons that resided in the lavastorm mountains in EQ1 and arent in EQ2.

    and actually, if i had to guess, i would say scorchwing because his skeletal structure is most like that one. tirranun was more darathar - ish
    Message Edited by xbraindeadx on 05-05-2006 07:41 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-Cusashorn Guest

    Dragons of Norrath came out after EQ2, so it can't be either of them as they don't exist.
  5. ARCHIVED-MoD1133 Guest

    There were many dragons in EQ who wanted to harm each other but they wouldnt do it directly because it was a sacred law for them to not harm one another so they sent out mortals to kill other dragons for them.
  6. ARCHIVED-Dreadfiend Guest

    Once again, the expansion didn't come out until after the PoP, but the zone and the dragon faction Children of Veeshan were around for 4000 years prior to EQ2. If you need further proof of the existence of the zone pre-PoP, look at the original EQ1 map of Norrath (and all subsequent EQ1 maps of Norrath for that matter) and you'll see an area in northern Antonica called "The Nest". It was there from the beginning waiting to be opened.

    Those two dragons existed, players just weren't aware of them until the events surrounding Dragons of Norrath.
    Message Edited by Dreadfiend on 05-05-2006 11:38 PM
  7. ARCHIVED-Cusashorn Guest

    Comming out "After Planes of Power" and AFTER THE RELEASE OF EVERQUEST 2 are two completely different things. The later of which means it will not happen because it can't.
  8. ARCHIVED-Dreadfiend Guest

    No it's not in regards to lore because the culmination of the Planes of Power caused the timesplit between EQ1 and EQ2... however prior to the split, The Nest existed on official maps and the Children of Veeshan had existed for 4000 years hidden from players. That gives it a grandfather clause into EQ2 lore.
  9. ARCHIVED-Cusashorn Guest

    But that "Grandfather Clause" wasnt written into the game untill after EQ2 went live, which means it cant apply.

    I'll give them the fact that Gates of Discord and Omens of War *COULD* exist, because they were released before EQ2, but once EQ2 went live, that was when the split in the timeline finally officially happened and the rest is history. Anything introduced into EQlive since then, including this "Grandfather Clause" of Dragons of Norrath, cannot apply. The deadline has passed.
  10. ARCHIVED-Amana Guest

    Actually since we have this grandfather clause we do have a bit of a predicament on our hands. Dreadfiend stated it was the culmination of PoP *never played EQ1* that caused the timesplit leading to EQ1/EQ2 traveling on seperate time lines. Now since this occured because of the introduction of PoP it can be stated with more than 50% certainty that the lore/history/items etc... within that expansion can exist within EQ2. Now that leave a 49-1% certainty of doubt as well so that we can be fair to both sides.

    The nest has to exist within EQ2 because we see the ghostly Solusek Miners within SE and at the very bottom we see a huge drilling machine that is stuck at the very bottom. I really think for something interesting the developers should flush out Lavastorm adding a whole nother level to it. This being to a point where we can explore the area where the drill hit seeing if anyone managed to survive down there and if there is some very intriguing history behind that drill more then what we can assume.
  11. ARCHIVED-Dreadfiend Guest

    The Nest has been on maps of Norrath since EQ1 went live. The zone and the things in the zone therefore existed without question.

    The finding of the The Nest and how it was found is another question altogether. Perhaps The Nest and Veeshan's Children were never "discovered" in EQ2's timeline and remains hidden to this day. That's the only thing that can be realistically argued: was The Nest and the dragons within actually discovered in EQ2's post PoP timeline. The Nest is a part of pre-Shattering Antonica whether the players "found" it or not. That can't be refuted due to the official EQ1 maps. It existed.

    Btw... Grandfather Clauses by their very nature are written to include things that happen prior to the particular law being enforced. So the very fact that "the discovery" of The Nest and Veeshan's Children came after the release of EQ2 makes it.... a grandfather clause.
  12. ARCHIVED-Amana Guest

    Well from what I thought the Solusek miners had discovered the Nest which occured during PoP but then the shattering occured. It was during the shattering that the Sousek miners were punished by being killed having their spirits roam the tunnels of Solusek's Eye for all time. The giant drilling machine can be prof of that with the shattering wiping everyone elses memory of the event. Mortals minds are very fickled and can change over time even forgetting events. I have a feeling what really occured there has been lost to mortal knowledge and can only be rediscovered later on through tomes of ancient knowledge.
  13. ARCHIVED-Cusashorn Guest

    Maybe I"m just thinking this too much and being too technical. *sigh*

    I'll just give it one last go. I give up on this thread, so I'm just gonna try to explain my viewpoint as best as I can. If I'm wrong, then fine. I'm wrong. I'm not trying to prove I'm right. How can I? I don't know if it's actually right or wrong.

    All I'm saying is that the lore in EQlive about these dragons existing for 4000 years previously and all that.. from a RL standpoint, this lore wasn't added into the game untill a point in time where EQ2 had already gone live.

    Yes, The Nest existed on the maps in EQlive, but was never put in untill after EQ2 went live. I'm not saying the Nest doesn't, or should not exist. However, there was never any info or lore about what The Nest actually was untill Dragons of Norrath was released, and stated that it was a place where dragons lived. Before DoN, nobody knew what it was, or what it could have been, or speculated anything like that. For all we knew, The Nest was just the name of the lake in front of Halas, since it was placed on the map.

    But does this lore stating that these dragons have been around for 4000 years actually apply to EQ2 when the lore itself stating that these dragons have been around for 4000 years wasn't written into EQlive untill after EQ2 started?

    It's kinda like contradicting previous lore that the game was founded on. Umm... lets see. I'll use Lost Dungeons of Norrath for example. Miragul's Menagerie. I don't remember the exact specifics, so please don't correct me with semantics on this.

    Now the original story of Miragul goes on to say that while he practiced Necromancy, Wizardry, Conjuration, and Enchantment when he was young, all while keeping it hidden from the Erudite Council that he was actually studying all four by making different personas and identies and appearances for himself. It was forbidden for erudites to study more than one of the 3 types of magic, and Necromancy was... well you know the story and issues of the heretics.

    One could assume he spent between 20-50 years of his life studying these 4 magics. It wasn't untill later that he set out on the world to explore it. Now, it's stated that he spent at least 40 years (It is stated at least 2 Score) collecting artifacts and studying them. That would place him in the 60-120 age range. It is then stated that centuries began to pass, which means at least 200-300 (at least) years had passed beyond that, so now he's at least 260 years old, if not much, much older. Despite using whatever magical means he could to extend his life (Not necissarily necromancy by this either,) he came to realize he would not live much longer.

    It was only then that he discovered that the Heretics had built the city of Paineel. It was only THEN that he discovered that Necromancy could be used to raise the dead.

    Lets re-iterate. We now have an Erudite at least 300 years old, who despite studying necromancy for years, only now discovered that it could be used to raise the dead. It was only now, after many centuries, that he would finally attempt to create the Lich for him to continue living forever.




    Then we get to the Lost Dungeons of Norrath Lore about Miragul's Menagerie. As stated here:

    http://loralciriclight.com/ldon_lore.html

    Miragul ended up spending THOUSANDS of years before his body finally started to fail him. THOUSANDS of years had passed between him first learning necromancy, anf finally discovering that it could raise the dead.

    Now, the original story doesn't say that thousands of years passed, only that centuries had passed. This doesn't mean that thousands of years did not pass, but which version of the story are we suppose to believe?





    So, back to the original issue at hand. Just because the lore says that these dragons existed for 4000 years so far, which would place them as a grandfather clause because they pre-empt all the expansion in Everquest, does this lore apply to EQ2 because it wouldn't be written into EQlive untill after EQ2 started?

    The time split happened, so that means that any lore that happens in EQlive now, doesn't apply to EQ2, Even if that lore states that someone or something existed for thousands of years in the past.

    So does that mean that the Dragon Skeleton in Lavastorm could be one of those two dragons who's Grandfather Clause wouldn't come to even exist untill Dragons of Norrath was released after EQ2?
    Message Edited by Cusashorn on 05-06-2006 11:33 AM
  14. ARCHIVED-kennethlongjr Guest

    Regarding the "wyrm" in ools: all my research suggest a wyrm is a dragon. Except in soe developers minds I guess.
  15. ARCHIVED-Cusashorn Guest

    Wyrms are dragons who don't have wings. This is... generally accepted among many types of fantasy lore in many western cultures.
    The developers seemed to have taken a step further to show that Wurms aren't nearly as intellegent as dragons or as powerful in that regard, for EQ2 anyway.
  16. ARCHIVED-Amana Guest

    rofl, well "technically" you are right where Veeshan is indeed the "Mother of all Wyrms" meaning dragons. However there are classifications like in the scientific order of RL animals/plants/fungi and such. There are Dragons, Drakota, Droags *I think they go here*, then on the lowest end are drakes and finally Wurms. The salamander type things that are classified as worms are the lowest form of draconic kind with the intelligence of a peanut, Drakes maybe a little more intelligent probably with the smarts of a dog, Droags on the other hand have intelligence comparable to humans with Drakota and Dragons having superior intellect I believe.
    As to how superior Drakota/Dragon intellect is I have no idea. Kerafyrm from what it sounds like was dumb as a post yet had tremendous power thus we have our loosecannon/uncontrollable destruction machine.

    As for Cusashorn, I don't think your wrong bud and I understand what your getting across. Your saying that since that lore wasn't even release/concieved of until after EQII it shouldn't be in this game. But we all have to admit what do movie writters do when they want to flush out something they have already written? They write up "Prequels" *sp* which go before a certain period of time to the original content. Thus we have are arguement about the children of Veeshan existing for 4000 years and this incredible backing to Dragons within the Realm/Scope of EverQuest lore/series.
  17. ARCHIVED-Cusashorn Guest

    Yeah but its just the whole "The Nest" thing. Honestly there's not a single mention of speculation about what The Nest could have been before DoN came out and told us.

    If there was something, ANYTHING, that mentioned even a rumor that dragons lived in it, I would not be arguing the point. I would accept that there are dragons down there and that they've been down there for thousands of years.
  18. ARCHIVED-kennethlongjr Guest

    Thanks for the posts on wyrms. I was only able to find very limited outside information on them. Can anyone recommend an outside source, whether online or in a generally accessible book?
  19. ARCHIVED-Amana Guest

    Well the power of dragons is a good start :smileywink: . But really I would start with EQ1 and looking at its lore concerning Veeshan because she is the mother of all wurms. Basically the "Power of Dragons" discussion as I intended it has worked out quite nicely. I wanted to investigate the actual history behind dragons, what their true power is, the ring of scale, power of the harness big D *Darathar* holds, as well as numerous other facts including the Mighty Kerafyrm.

    I think though with KoS we have discovered 50% of the dragon lore/history/power at best/max if I had to say so myself. I think there is something much deeper that we have yet to discover and this won't be revealed till later on when we discover new realms. Even possibly to the point of seeing Kerafyrm finding out what has really become of him. The only hint Nagafen gives us is "While in Kerafyrms absence his generals bicker leaving the perfect opportunity for you to strike." Nagafen is plotting something very foul and it is concievable it has to do with Kerafyrm but I think even the mighty Nagafen fears Kerafyrm.

    There is also a puzzling statement when you complete the Deception quest. Nagafen wanted to make sure the egg did not fall into the wrong hands however he did not care that it was smashed to pieces. I believe he also mentioned he has a nest of those eggs tucked away for safe keeping. Maybe as a further punishment for trying to mate with Lady Vox he is ordered to guard the nest of eggs and does so with little or no regard.
  20. ARCHIVED-IrishWonder Guest

    From what I gather, this nest of eggs are the offspring of himself and Lady Vox. In some lore (including dialogue in the Deception quest line and some of the lore pre-release), it is stated that after the Shattering occurred Nagafen and Vox were able to leave their prisons. They were also finally able to "seal the deal" that they had been prevented from before. They mated, and the eggs were placed under Nagafen's watch. After Vox was killed in her lair by Darathar's drakota, Nagafen was left alone with the eggs. When these hatch, they will more or less be under Nagafen's control... being that he is their father. What Nagafen plans to do with this kind of power is another question all together... perhaps he wants to take control of all of Norrath himself, much like Kerafyrm plans to do with his cult of the Awakened? This would explain why Nagafen is "wary" of Kerafyrm... he's the only force that might prevent Nagafen's plans (if those are indeed his plans) from coming to fruition.
    As for why Nagafen did not care about the egg being shattered... he stated that he has many eggs, and one egg doesn't make a difference. He just viewed it as a "Either I have that egg, or nobody has that egg" scenario :smileywink: