Please Give Bards Better DPS - Faster Casting - Heres Why....

I play a tank 90% of the time, I raid as an assassin. I do have many alts I enjoy as well, but those are my mains. as a Tank, the one thing you quickly do as a tank, is get a small list of good healers, and bards, and try to group with them often, and if you tank well, they will want to group with you too. we all enjoy instance content from time to time. but instances in the ferzul/outer stronghold range, you really have a damn hard time ahead of you, if you dont bring a bard of some sort.
as a tank for 2 years now, I have a long list of "use to be bards", dirges and troubs that have either quit playing that toon, for another class, or barely play at all.
from what I have have noticed, your usual bard, stops playing his bard in about 3 months. after they get thier mythical, and some raid gear, or instance loot... they just seem to either disappear, or really only play as thier guilds about to raid.
my friend I played with for a year, was a dirge, and now plays a mystic full time, or a warlock and brig in spare time. when listening to his complaints, it sounded familiar cause I had heard them all before. Bards only do OK on DPS when compared to other scout classes, such as brigands and assassins. why? I mean, I know they shouldnt be top end DPS, but when I raid on my assassin, its rare for me to see a bard of any class parse half as high as I do on my assassin.
thing is, I've heard this alot, bards want to parse well, like any other DPS class, but when evenly geared they only do OK against other scout classes. as a assassin, it wouldnt kill me to see a bard inching up on my DPS.
then theres the whole "Buff Bot" thing people seem to get sick of. a bard dies in raid, they got about 10 spells to cast and it can take about 30 seconds to get them all cast. on top of that, when things are really getting bad, a few deaths back to back can really make being a bard more a nuisance then anything. no matter who you are, you get sick of sitting there casting buffs, and wasting DPS time, when the raid is going on.
like any scout, you want to get in there and do your part. thats the fun of raiding, to do something. but the amount and time of bard buffs casting just seems excessive, when you realize how many buffs they really got to cast.


I dont know what to really say, I am no expert on bards, but I do know one thing - they sure do disappear alot more then most other classes.
as a tank, I love tanking, I will put up with 100 deaths in a raid, just to get a good pull spot down, and last a minute on the encounter (IE zarrakon) just to learn what to do next time and be alittle better.
as an assassin, its exciting to joust out, throw up a few buffs, just before the AOE hits, then run in, and see yourself doing a great parse, and competing against the other DPS in your groups/raid (we have 2 assassins in our raids, so we have alot of fun trying to outparse each other)
but there seems to be a general lack of really wanting to be a bard, by people that are bards. so they seem to quite the class alot more then other classes, in favor of dedicated DPS classes like wizards and assassins.
I've seen alot of great bards just disappear over the last 2 years, sometimes to become a different class they had more fun with, or just leave all together. its sad really, cause they were great at it, but the class as it was, wasnt enough to really be enjoyable for a long period of time, cause it seems to be lacking in same basic areas, and the perception that bards can just "autofollow and no one would know they werent there" is kinda sad really. if I as a tank can love tanking, and as an assassin, have a great deal of fun working on my DPS... shouldnt bards be able to have some sort of fun that keeps them attracted to playing that class to?

They need parsers that give credit to each toon for its buffs in DPS/Heals. How much DPS does a bard give you? It makes a huge difference to me. I find thanks and backpatting helps. That said give them alittle more DPS doesn't hurt me.

The problem with tracking how much DPS is added from bard buffs is that it's actually very difficult to do, with the exception of direct proc damage from Chime, Aria, and Perfection of Maestro.
Not everyone benefits equally from the same buff: If someone is sitting 100 DPS mod solo, and another person sits at 0 DPS mod solo, and the Dirge runs his DPS buff, who benefits more? You might say the person with 0 DPS, but you're also ignoring weapon selection: if the person with 100 DPS mod solo has mythical and raid fabled off hander, and the person with 0 is using mastercrafted or worse, it's possible the mythical'd person will gain more DPS even though the actual gain is much lower.
And in either case, how much raw dps is that exactly? Given the parse breakdown, can you tell me without busting out a calculator, looking up tables of data, and so on? I couldn't.
And what about Jcap? Can you tell me how much raw damage it actually adds? What about Don't Kill The Messenger? What about the INT portion of Perfection of the Maestro?

I've always said that it takes a certain mindset to play a Bard. I did it for about 8 years in EQ1 and made my Troub on day 1 of release in EQ2. It takes a person who sees the big picture......that your assistance to the raid is more important than your own personal glory (DPS parse).
That said I would love to have an offensive stance like all of the other Scouts do. Yeah we have a personal buff but it is reactionary in nature and really designed for soloing.....which we don't do well even with the self buff. And I would also like a defensive stance for soloing.
As far as grouping......well Bards have lost a lot of their shine due to other classes getting more utility buffs. So a lot of Bards tend to fade away.
I am not sure more personal DPS is a solution to keeping people playing a Bard.....as I said I think it has to sort of be in you from the get go. But more DPS would certainly make the class more fun and desireable in group situations, and would not in any way unbalance us in raids. Especially when you factor in the upcoming changes to make having more than one of each Bard less desireable in raids.

People probably get sick of playing Troubs because their primary function is to pump up everyone else's DPS. I have been in groups where Mages have actually fallen out over who gets Upbeat just so they can ramp up the all consuming, all important, all holy parse.
My Troub is now my main and I enjoy playing her. Yes, I get no credit whatsoever. I dont get complemented on my parse, or patted on the back about my healing ability or a handshake over how well I tanked an encounter. My job is the background, where it belongs IMO.
I'd rather they made our dps worse and increased the power of our buffs to a point where people really begin to appreciate it. At the moment they get JC'd and PotM every so often but the Bard is largely invisible in a group.
I'm really pig sick of parsing and ACT. Its getting so that people are neglecting their classes' primary roles just to do as much DPS as is possible. Healers rolling on the Bloodthirsty Choker...declaring they are going to dps an instance. Tanks continually trying to DW no matter what. Its all about glory on the parse now. That coupled with the trend with encounters being reliant on the players' reaction times rather than the actual toon they are playing is beginning to dilute everyone into the same boring gene pool.
Rant over.

I've seen the opposite of the OP in my guild. My guild has had two players who switched their mains completely over to bards and are loving it, with another two strongly considering it. One player had a 200AA mythic'd toon he barely plays anymore in favor of his bard. Why? Ease of finding a group. His bard barely waits any time at all to find a group while his old main would wait for hours. His personal DPS is under half of what it used to be but he is geting 3x to 4x the number of group invites now on his bard and having a blast.
Fendaria

to be honest here, if your a Monk, Bruiser, ranger , Fury, Conjuror or Necro, your time in the game is gonna be rather lonely. each of these classes are at a disadvantage compared to other classes in alot of peoples eyes.
brawlers are paper tanks, furys have weak heals, and summoners are just screwed no matter what... and poor rangers... I dont even wanna go there.
thats the perception of these classes, it takes truely exceptional players to break the mold of what people think of these classes, and there are players that do. but in general, if your playing a class like this.... you better either have some real good friends that play with you no matter what, or something like that.
but on the flip side, some classes are just majorly over populated - like SK's at the moment are INCREDIBLY OVERPOWERED... and every tank in the world seems to now have a SK alt they are working on. which unavoidably leads to a tougher time being that class, since you cant walk 10 feet without falling over 17 bad SK's that wiped your group.
so I can see it, where there would definatly be alot of reason why a bard would have a much easier time to find a group. theres no doubt about that.

one thing brought up that sounded so simple but perfect was the stance idea. bards with thier own stances... that is such a simple idea that could just be the edge they need to give people a better incentive to play bards - get good at being a bard - then stay with the class.

on DPS
DPS is definatly a big issue sometimes. from a tanks point of view heres what I can tell you - us tanks, we dont have a whole lot of things that help us maintain aggro. theres no +10 to hate items out there, theres no shields with great deals of reducing the resistability of taunts .... which yes, taunts to have a extremely high resist rate once you start getting in zones around 85+. we dont get much of anything to actually help us maintain aggro.... which is rather odd, cause DPS classes get things that have +75 to CA damage, and +6 Double Attack, and so on. theres maybe 5 things in the entire game that gain us more aggro.
some are just a joke - like the charm from Nuroga - looks awesome, but run a single zone with it, and ACT up, and you'll wonder why you ever wore it in the first place - its got a 100% resist rate, no matter what zone your in. theres some good items like the old L78 BP that had +5 to hate gain for tanks... but why isnt that kinda thing more common on tank gear? the void bane pieces from Palace of Ferzul has some hate gain... but the pieces themself arent really good for a tank, since they have stats like +10 STA, and little to no DPS.
when every other class has exponential ways to increase thier DPS... a tank really only has 4-5 items in the entire game that actually are designed for a tank, and those items are few and far between, due to extremely high resist rates, out dated gear, or crap gear (like the trash loot from palace of the ancient one)
so what happens is, every tank quickly realizes if they want to hold aggro, it really does come down to upping your parse, and 100% of the time, this means the first thing a tank gives up, is their defensive stance. then out goes the gear like the charm from nuroga, in favor of some DPS gear. cause theres nothing really out there to actually help a tank do thier job, cause every DPS class in the game has a huge amount of ways to increase thier DPS, but tanks have almost nothing to help them maintain aggro - until they stop thinking of tanking, and go DPS.

Guy De Alsace wrote:

I'd quit playing my troub if they did that. I understand the role of the bard is to make others look better and not be at the top of the parse, but to take away any dps abilities.... no thanks I'm fine with dps the way it is now, I wouldn't complain if we were given more though.

i'm able to do 10k+ on palace trash, not the new trash with no hp but those before, so i'm ok with my dirge dps =) also i've been playing it for a year or more, and i'm doing rez, gravitas and cob. Each class have his potential and limits and you have to ajust the way you play. but i admit, when i die it's just toooooo long to rebuff :/

1. Bards are not nor have they even BEEN considered DPS. BEFORE the combat changes that made even tanks parse 4 to 5k that wasn't an issue. Its only recently that the parse has become the end all be all indicator of how effeective your toon is.
2. Any bad who does NOT feel liek they are contributing or they have someone decide to make a smartA~@ comment about parse, they should just do what I did. Strip every buff off then spam the parse to the raid,,,,and ask everyone what happneed to thier dps.
The REAL big problem I agree though is the buffs.

Well the buffing is not going to be an issue since on Test buffs persist through death. So that part is solved. With respect to Dirge DPS vs. Troub DPS.....well Dirges have the advantage in personal numbers. The effect on your mysthical means your auto attack numbers just blow us away. Now if they put in a proc on the Ayonic Axe that made all of my spells hit for max damage like your myth does for your melee attacks......we could talk.

you know, I think when you start talking about making a bard into a DPS class specifically, then your complicating things.
what I am suggesting is giving a bard a extra boost in personal DPS to atleast be more in line with other scout classes, not to surpass them, but give them a better edge getting near them on the parse.
see, when all is said and done, when you have all your buffs up - what are you left to do? when your in raid, what are you doing 90% of the time your not casting your buffs? (and not rezzing) - your DPSing.
thing is, even the best bards I know, can only get half my own parses. I have some avatar geared friends that play with us sometimes, and even they (Avatar Geared Bards) are rather easy to beat on the parse, which I honestly wouldnt be too happy with if I was them, cause while my toon is very well geared, I am no where near your average avatar geared scout.
I just say this, cause I really hate the fact that everytime I see a good bard quit... they start playing a pure DPS class, cause they were never happy being only the buff bot in raids. people complain that its all about the parse... well no, its really not. every person in a raid, wants to do thier best, so we all try hard as hell to do our best with what we are. healers want to heal well, mages want to DPS well, scouts want to DPS well, tanks want to hold aggro well.

Kunaak wrote:

You're not really going to get a big boost in personal dps, unless you probably want to start losing the effectiveness of your buffs. It's the same way things were back in eq1, albeit less carpal tunnel issues. Bards weren't there for purely dps, they were their to make your existing dps classes better. It's a utility class, not a full out dps class.

As someone said earlier , i'm pretty happy with my dps at the moment as a Troubador. I wouldnt mind a tad more due to the fact we have the least dps potential of the buff classes , but i'm happy either way. Makes me wanna work harder to try and keep up with them.

As for the comments of lower personal dps for greater utility , i wouldn't care for that too much. I'm happy not being a pure buff bot. I like the fact that i can add more to my group than just the buffs i bring. If it ever got to the point where all i did was melee and cast buffs on other people , i would probably quit due to being bored.

Locan@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Yeah, you just need to be not dead to keep those buffs running. Thankfully group buffs will persist through death soon


But to the OP -- Bards are and have always been utility/buff classes. Yes, they can still do OK dps, but their major potential is in the buffs the provide. Heck, why do you think you see so many pick-ups asking for bards?

Good topic
I have been playing a Troub since the day eq2 went live and am just now starting to get tired of him because of lack of dps ( will keep playing for my raiding guild).
I am not really sure what we need but i am starting to have way more fun with my assassin just because i can at least try to get in on the dps race.
I wish i knew the fix for our class maybe alittle more dps would help but i dont really see how that would make a big differance.
Maybe stances would help or poison at 50% damage of assassins
But like other's here i am seeing Bards quitting in favor of playing dps classes and its up to the developers to try and fix this.
Also keeping buffs up thru death will make me very happy so thats a start.

People always bring up the "You are a support class argument". It's a legit argument but there's only so much support we have control of during fights. Sure we have our permanent buffs but while we're not casting POTM/Jcap what is there to do? DPS! I'm not sure atm my stance on bard dps, there is always room for improvement with my toon but i just feel like we're limited.

After reading this entire thread twice (first time dumbfounded me so much I had to make sure I read it right) I can't help but ask...
Bards/enchanters already get 8 spots out of 24 in every raid. They buff everyones dps so they can maximize their dps...and now you're asking to get a dps boost?
We have a dirge in our raid force that does 10k dps. We have a troub parsing out 8k pretty regularly. We have an illy parsing 25k and a coercer doing 14-16k. Utility classes are just that, utility. When you made the choice to play a utility class, you accepted that your PRIMARY role is to buff everyone else and increase their dps. If you're so concerned about parsing out the top numbers, play a dps class.
OR
You sacrifice half your utility to other dps classes like so they can still be considered for raid spots. Take a look at brigands, we're losing half our buffs to summoners so they can be more desireable in raids. A conjurer that I know parses 25k on multi-mob encounters and 16-18k on single target. One of the best brigs game-wide parses 19k but we're still losing some of our debuffs to a higher parsing class. Why? Too many poor players can give ANY class a horrible name. It should be pretty obvious but, if you've missed the point, I'll spell it out for ya. Just because YOU are not parsing in the higher numbers, it doesn't mean the class itself is not capable of it. I'm not keen on the whole mentality of telling people to L2Play their class and all that jazz BUT... if you're going to beg and plead to be a dps class, make sure you are ready to give something up. You should know by now that nothing is given without something being taken. If you want more dps, you WILL lose some of the utility.
Consider the upcoming changes that are being discussed. Some bard buffs are supposedly going raid-wide. This means that the demand is going to go down to some degree depending on how its handled. If that change goes live, chances are some of you are going to be out of the raid force so they can pull another dps class in.
Just throwing something out there to think about. I'm not directing any of this at a single person or class, just stating that maybe the fault is not with the mechanics of a given class.

I agree one major idea behind this post. That idea being the belief that bards just aren't fun enough to play to keep players interested in the class. I know many players who are reluctant to play their bards over time.
I would have to say that I think dps increases need to be seriously considered and that it might not be the best solution to the problem. I would suggest some increased soloability, or possibly crowd control instead. I love to raid with my brigand because it makes me stronger as an individual character. I am not as attracted to playing a high level bard because no matter how good his gear is, he will still have a much harder time on his own.

Am I the only one who think bards are fine and are lucky to have the dps potential we have now?
Troubs can dps just as well as Dirges btw, they just get put in groups that do not allow them to realize their own dps potential as well because of their own buffs.
If they ever revamp Bards, they should nerf our auto-attack damage and increase the damage from our abilities, putting more effort into Dirge CA and Troub spell damage so that both classes thrive best in groups they usually get put in.