Torum76 wrote: LOL. Any raiding guild that is not currently using a Guard as a MT is just putting themselves at a disadvantage. Its like using an Inq in the MT group. Sure it can be done, but there is definitely a difference. As to the Plant argument the spell does work in RAIDS a lot. It picks up tons of mobs and will target lock them. Usually only named are immune to target lock....meaning everything that comes along with it aren't immune to it. It does exactly what it is supposed to do.
Toranx@Crushbone wrote: Yes. It takes time for things to change. As some tanks move on more Guards will be recruited into the MT spot. Of course player skill has everything to do with it and those using a very skilled tank as the MT aren't going to just go out and make the change like in RoK. Get the combo of a skilled player as a Guard and its is an advantage in raiding. There is a big reason why all the fighter boards are so quiet currently. What needed to change was changed...time to move on.
Bruener wrote: A major problem has been fixed - guards not being able to performa the tank role well in groups. But there is plenty more that needs changing. Time to move on to that. Things like guards bringing nothing more than the ability to tank to a raid, whereas the other plate tanks do that and more. But this has already been said many times.
Paladins take less physical damage than Guardians and can put up their own ward for AoE's that you can time. SK's are king of survivability with Bloodletter. I don't see anything changing anytime soon. Breuner, maybe you should look at things in detail and not base everything you say on your own personnel experiances. Your raid force is effective the way it's built. But, as said above, the raids that are surpassing you have one major difference to your raid. I'm sure your MT is a very experiance and capable player but a mechanic that has the right tools will fix your car much faster than the one who only has a screwdriver. The guy with the screwdriver might get it fixed but it's probably not gonna be pretty and it's gonna take a long time.
Wasuna wrote: Maybe you should take your own advice and look at details and mechanics currently. Yes Paladins take less on physical hits when they do damage. Yes SKs have Bloodletter. But what you fail to recognize is the vast amount of stoneskins that Guards have, and now with mobs having casting bars how easy it is to stoneskin everything that does big damage. A Guard can sit there and watch a mobs casting bar and see when they are casting their big AEs...and BAM stoneskin = no damage taken. The fact that their stoneskins are on a pretty fast recast and they have so many means that they can stoneskin every round of AEs. And in case you guys haven't noticed AEs are what is doing the major spike damage this xpac. The change of adding cast bars on mobs alone was a huge step for Guard advantage. Now throw in all the additional changes that they rec'd and they are quite the power houses. To the above poster complaining about Guards contribution to the raid other than tanking you do realize there is more to utility than just personal DPS right? Guards provide a huge HP buff to the raid. They can AE immune the other fighters which is huge in helping them avoid damage. They can stoneskin for their group. They do this all while being hte best at taking damage, or really avoiding damage with how easy stoneskins are utilized now. And to top it off they do all this without ANY agro problems at all. ST and AE. Yeah, thats why nobody is complaining. Things are great and its time to move on. Not that I expect the couple little whiners that run rampant around here to ever understand simple mechanics.
Can you guys ban him again? It was so nice not having to see his BS spewing all over the place for a while. But hey, what they have planned for SK well maybe tanks in general for next year, plan on seeing Bruener QQ all over the place.
While I still think that in general the entire fighter archetype needs work...i.e most fighter classes simply are able to do way more than tanks should.........IMO Guardian atm is doing pretty well. My main raid toon is an Assassin but I have had the chance recently to play my Guard more on other raids and have not felt any of the gimpness or disadvantage I did in TSO and early parts of SF. I see some outstanding issues with Guards with respect to balance against the others and that is we still really do not offer much more than being MT and even then what we offer is really not all that much more than the others which offer alot more in addition. Yes we can tank.......yes we can hold aggro just fine........but so can they. Second, is that when we are not tanking we really are rather useless on a raid......yeah the new HP buff change was ok but hardly a reason to waste a slot with a non-MT Guardian. This is something I have experienced recently.......i feel useless and like a total leach taking my Guard on a raid that already has MT. The truth is that if your a up and comming SK or Pally or Brawler or Zerker your chances of being taken on a raid as a non MT or even as a 2nd of your class is much much higher than if you were a Guard. Nobody wants more than 1 single Guard and when they do its not for a non-MT role. This makes it really hard for Guardians not already grandfathered in to get into raiding....which is ironically the only purpose for their class. Nobody recruits Guards period. Personally I dont think this is a Guardian class issue.....its an overall archetype and game issue so really doubt it will ever be addressed. Another issue is that Guardian requires alot better gear to be as effective as SK is with lesser gear....not really sure if that is a class issue or yet another result of Defensive tanks becoming obsolete. All in all i think SOE needs to take a hard look at the entire tank archetype.....most of us really need to be put back in our place so to speak (Guards included) =P
Bruener wrote: 1. Tower of Stone at MINIMUM has a recast of 1 min (Base 2), Last man standing has a recast of 3 mins, sorry but how with this VAST number of stoneskins can I avoid every AOE that does damage. You can avoid 1 of each of the first 2 sets of AOE's then every other one until LMS is back up. Stonesphere is a "Proc Chance" and cannot be relied upon to avoid AOE's and also has a 3 min recast. Please get your facts straight. 2. 1.5k HP, "Avoid AOE's on OTHER fighters" this is the bottom line of a very crap AA line, I've never taken it and I never will if my other fighters can't handle doing their roles without a Guardian helping them along then they need to rethink how they are playing their class. Stoneskin their group...? See Stonesphere being a "CHANCE" above. 3. Agro is better now than it was a couple of months ago but it is still nowhere near the other tanks due to the DPS difference that still exists, more DPS = more HAte. 4. You calling people rampant whiners is possible the most ironic thing you've ever said The fact is people are complaining, and at the end of the day there are now very few Guardians to actually complain. Things are better but we still have abilities that can kill us if we use them in the way they are meant to be used and out DPS is still no where near that of the other tanks but AOE and ST.
Bruener wrote: 1) You sir are dreaming. If I'm sword and board and stoping attacks to use block effectively to stoneskin the attacks, agro on ST is an issue, and agro in AE is ridiculously behind other plate tanks. If your statement was true that we could be the most defensive and have no agro issues, you might have a solid point. 2) No one is complaining cause no one is left playing the class.
Atan@Unrest wrote: Yeah I must be dreaming. I mean because I unlike you have the experience of seeing it first hand. I am sorry you haven't figured out the agro issue yet. As to AE agro versus other tanks. Yes Guard AE agro generation is lower....However that doesn't change the fact that they have easily enough AE agro to hold off of AE DPS'ers. The AE force target alone is enough to get agro rolling and hold mobs. So yeah, solid point - check. (Oh thats right, some of you think you should be the best MT and equal OT too....) As to no one playing the class I will give you that a lot rerolled or betrayed over the last couple years. Probably something they should have done a while ago because the vast majority of them can't cut it as MT anyway and rolled the class during a time they were extremely OP'd with the expectation of being the best Fighter at everything in the game. They should have rolled a different class for their OT-type playstyle they wanted in the first place. Keep making excuses, I am sure that it will make you better someday.... And Soul your post is good for a laugh. You completely ignore all the abilities of Guards meanwhile I see you attacking Paladins in their thread that are trying to address some of their issues. Hypocrit much? Speaking as a SK I can see why Paladins that have a huge amount of AAs vested into their heals have room to complain since Heals for ALL tanks are now worthless. I laugh at the grossly small amount my heals do in this game now and for some reason AAs that increase the ability of very very little are supposed to be worth taking?
Until mitigation is balanced Paladins asking for more heals is them asking for even more over a Guardian, this is in balanced. They already have the same mitigation, or very very close so it doesn't matter, they have more Damage reduction, better hate, better DPS, they should suddenly get equal spike tools as well? That's what I'm argueing against. Boli is asking for 40% potency buffs attacked to heals, stoneskins attached to heals, Massive increases in the ward amounts, being un-interuptable, the list just goes on. As for ignoring abilities... You were on about stoneskins re7ard, Last Man standing/Tower of Stone/Stone sphere ARE the only stone skin abilities a Guardian has, which other fictional abilities should I have mentioned? Tower of stone, recast of 1 min MINIMUM, most Guardians will have it at this. Last Man standing, recast of 3 mins, most Gurdians won't get it below 2min 30. Guardian Sphere, 25% CHANCE of a stoneskin for 30 seconds on a 3 min reuse. AOE set 1 - Cast ToS, the other 2 AOE's in that set we have to eat. AOE set 2 - Cast LMS, the other 2 AOE's in that set we have to eat. AOE set 3 - ToS is up, The other 2 AOE's we have to eat. AOE set 4 - NOTHING UP, eat all. AOE set 5 - ToS is up,eat the other 2. AOE set 6 - LMS "may" be up, Eat 2. AOE set 7 - Tos, eat 2. Seven sets of AOE's (21 AOE's) and we can block 5 of them, that's less than 25%. It's simple sodding maths, and these are the VAST amount of stoneskins you're always referring to! In that same time frame a Zerker can reduce EVERY SINGLE AOE by 50%, who took the least damage and spiked less? A Paladin can have a ~4k ward up for each and has 10% damage reduction and LC to reduce at least 4 of the AOE's by 40%, LC also applies to the SK. I'll say it again since you seem to be hard of reading, Guardian Sphere CANNOT be used reliably to block AOE's so you just cannot count it as a realiable form of stoneskin, in these situations.
Bruener wrote: You're so full of crap it isn't funny man. The aoe target lock doesn't work on 95%+ or raid content. Now if your saying the class has no problems holding ae aggro in heroic content, I agree with you. If your saying the class has no problems holding ST or AE agro in raid environments, you're dreaming. The entire design of the class at this point is focused around MTing with the ability of avoiding most of the scripted spike damage by controlling exact timings of stoneskins effectively. That's pretty much the class description at this point in as far as raid roles. The issues presented are the low agro generation running the sword and board to do so effectively combined with pausing of CA/Taunt use for durations around the spike damage events (ca/taunt use negates the primary stoneskin). This presents agro challenges for this class in raid/MT role that no other plate tank deals with.
Bruener wrote: And "you" (SK) think you should be best OT and equal MT. Seems about fair to me. Why we keep feeding this waste of oxygen is beyond me.
