PG times under 5 minutes after nerfing

Discussion in 'Zones and Populations' started by Anatha, May 26, 2017.

  1. Anatha Active Member

    I do have a silly question...I watched the twitch stream and was wondering if because the times were so low, if that is why more coins were awarded. When I run it with a group and we win, I only get to click a 3 coin window and a 2 coin window...or does it have to do with the UI?
  2. Azeren Member

    Sometimes all of the coin windows pop up and sometimes only the 3 and 2 coin windows do, it's not because of a faster time, just sometimes your character auto accepts those other coins instead of having a window pop up for them. I don't know what causes it, I just know I always get them because they show up in my chat window that shows all my other loot/rewards.
  3. Anatha Active Member

    ok good to know...I thought I was missing something.
  4. captainbeatty451 Well-Known Member

    All I want is for people to be more honest about how to do go super fast. I understand that they want to hang onto their times, and that's great. I think the groups who are putting out videos is awesome to help others.

    However, what I mean by being honest is this. It's not a matter of bringing higher dps. It's a matter of using the correct dps to get it done. My thaumaturgist boss rotation that tops our raid parses in the billions does jack $$$$ against these PG bosses, even with enhanced vigor. But one person using cascading force at the right time pretty much instantly kills the boss.

    Another example would be using frozen heavens is a nice aoe spell. But implosion is way better because it does damage over time. So if you want to kill the groups of mobs quickly, you can either have 6 people cast 6 different big one shot aoe spells or ONE person cast grandmaster implosion with the right buffs. And those are just a couple of examples that I have witnessed first hand. I have heard of others that are also class or spell specific, putting other classes at severe disadvantages.

    So what this means is, the best way to get these done is to have multiple etherealists so you can have those particular skills spread out across the map. Groups who don't have these skills or who don't coordinate these skills well in order to spread them out between trash pulls and bosses will never have the same times as groups who can get the right makeup of classes and spells. and grandmaster vs adept or whatever makes a HUGE difference.

    So generalizing it behind 'teamwork' and prioritizing spells and buffs and having 'high dps' is a bit misleading. There are particular spells and buffs that are necessary to get it done very quickly vs average vs very slow, and we're only talking about a few things here.

    Point of all this is that I wanted a PG to be a balanced situation where your skill would carry you through, and learning the dungeon would be the most important part to getting it done more quickly. Instead, we have other factors that matter much more than just learning the dungeon. It makes pugs rage-inducing. It makes grouping with friends, if you have not the exact correct makeup of friends, frustrating. And it turns PG into a concept that kills the morale of the game because it should be fun, but is a tedious grind that includes gear so good that anything else feels like a waste of time.

    Take ascension out of the mix, and I'd be a lot happier about the state of PG. Give me a solo instance where I could get it done in my own time without having to rely so heavily on the correct group makeup and it would do a lot towards satisfaction with the content.
  5. -Soteria- Well-Known Member

    Cascading force is not the thing that is killing the mobs. It does like 3% damage... IF I cast it during tw with temps. The only reason I cast that is because somehow everything else I have to cast is even worse. It just happens to land around the same time as everyone else's​ big spells, which is apparently making you think it hits hard.

    I don't know how many more ways I can say that it is not ascension spells. Are people not listening or do they think I'm lying or what? Actually on second thought... Sure, tell them to nerf ascension spells more. It'll only make things even worse for the pugs that are wasting time casting them, and better for us since we don't.

    The spells doing big chunks of damage are class spells. I know what they are for the classes we commonly run with, but it's not my place to reveal other people's techniques that they've spent days figuring out. Look at your spec, read your spells, figure out what your class can do to make your big spells crit. Figure out which spells hit hardest, and combine it with those. It might not be the same spells that normally hit hard on live, because stats are very different. If you think using the same cast order as you use on live is going to yield the best results in pgs, then you're not going to succeed.

    I've been as transparent as it's reasonable to be, and 1000% honest about what we do. Short of spelling out everyone's cast orders, I don't see what more I could do... And it seems like thats what you're expecting. If any of the dps want to share their combos that's their call, but I guarantee they won't because the whiners will just jump on it and screech for nerfs.
  6. captainbeatty451 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Soteria. I appreciate the feedback. You could be right in that my class spells are all of a sudden wracking up enough DoT that all of a sudden the boss has a gigantic chunk of its health taken off. Currently all I have to go by is seeing huge chunks of health being ripped off the mob and then asking my friends who I always group with and trust what just happened and have the reply be either cascading force or implosion. Without ACT working in there, all I have to go by is what people say.

    Personally, I have not noticed any of my own spells doing any kind of significant damage even with enhanced vigor. Any time I see the bosses take huge damage, I ask what happened. People say consistently, cascading force and implosion. So...maybe we're all missing what is actually doing it. Wish there was some way to tell for sure so I could actually make myself more efficient in there.
  7. Anatha Active Member

    My guild ran some PGs last night and even though we didn't have 3 minute times, we did have 10 to 11 minute times. Good enough for me at this point. We were taking down the bosses pretty quickly using our class spells. We didn't use a zerker, we used a pally and we didn't have a troub, we had a dirge for a bit then had to pug it with another dirge then a BL. It worked.
    Earar and captainbeatty451 like this.
  8. captainbeatty451 Well-Known Member

    My groups get it done smoothly as well. The only thing that I'm trying to point out here is that classes themselves and certain spells make a LOT more difference than just working together if you're trying to get the best times. And I find that frustrating. If anything, I hope it's being used by the developers to get a better handle on some of the current balance issues we see in our game.

    Also, while I often despise this population's reliance on ACT, I would like to have ACT enabled in there.
  9. Earar Well-Known Member

    issue is we cannot check on parse ... and it takes time to figure it out.

    yep 10 minutes also.
    Where we truly lose time is on 3rd named. A group I was with .. we could OS him. With my guildies we can't. We need to figure out how to do it ... how to kill that statue so fast.
    we had illu, SK, inqui, BL, conju and troubi
  10. -Soteria- Well-Known Member

    Sacred, have you tried life burn in there? We don't have any necros in our regular circle, but I've noticed that a lot of the things that parse well on pq mobs also parse well in pg. It might be outdated info but I was under the impression that life burn was one of those things, and might not be something you've tried since you likely haven't been speccing for it normally.

    I hesitate to even mention a class ability that could be decent on here, because of how ruthless people were about screeching Savage allies, soulburn, manaburn, etc into drastic nerfs.

    I am fairly certain though that our class combos are not the only good configuration, or even necessarily the best. The classes we have around has more to do with what's strong in a raid environment on live, because that's how we know each other, and we just evolved our method by grouping randomly at first and occasionally like you said stumbling onto something effective and saying "heyyyyy how can we do that again?" Which led us to certain class configurations to do things we know work.
    Last week on the boat we had some really clean runs with a brig/wizzy dps combo as well... And I've never even grouped with a swashy or warlock but I bet they would not suck. Sorcs are legit for pg. I'm convinced there are a number of potential class combos that could contest our times if they tried.
    captainbeatty451 likes this.
  11. Anatha Active Member

    Well as a ranger I know what works well between a pally and myself with class spells. Now that we know some things work well, can't wait to try it on the boat again. It will be interesting to see what the lately PG will be like. From what has been said, these are not the only 2 PG zones.
  12. captainbeatty451 Well-Known Member

    Thanks again. I haven't used lifeburn in there. And I'll admit that I've only done enough to get my ring maxed out, so my number of runs is pretty low compared to many people. The group I run with is comprised of people who are strong in a raid environment but very lackluster in PG--other than our illusionist who is strong in both.

    But when I read 'make sure to have high dps' when doing PG, I feel people need to have a better picture of what that means, because it certainly doesn't mean bring who is usually a high dps person into the instance. It means make sure you have an illusionist so you can turn your most effective damage person from a 25 potency to 150 potency until canceled or death--along with the other things they bring to the table. And 'most effective' doesn't necessarily mean 'person who usually leads your raid dps.' It means, 'person who has skills that do very well for whatever reason in the PG.' Berserkers, for example, apparently annihilate trash mobs, especially when granted vigor. Guardians do not. And from what I heard, lifeburn and soulburn 'were' some of those abilities, but they were quickly nerfed when people saw they were awesome. Soulburn I know for sure was blah by the time I was able to use it. Someone else told me lifeburn stunk as well, but I'll admit I took them at their word and didn't feel like changing spec yet again to fit it in.

    Again though, I guess the reason I'm even venting here is because I'd love to see ACT established so we could have a better way to learn what we are doing in there. I guess, on top of being a smart player, you got lucky with who you tend to group with. I feel that the people who usually run with me got unlucky since while I am an awesome addition to any heroic, expert, or raid group, I don't feel like I bring much at all to the table for PG, other than that I won't do anything to intentionally mess it up, and I can at least do my job effectively if not super duper spectacularly quickly compared to other things I've witnessed like BL taking huge chunks of health off of a name with their savagery chain.

    Maybe that's why they continue to leave ACT out of the picture. because they know for sure that some classes stink and would then not be allowed in any groups if people knew that with evidence? (I wouldn't behave like that, but I know many would). Only thing I read is that it's not there because PG is not supposed to be about the parse. Well that's fine. But I'd like to know what skills I should prioritize, or whether I'd be better off using my cleric in there instead. And as of right now, it's very hard to tell since so many factors are working together with no clear feedback. And all I'm left with is 'how did they do that?' and 'how can I do something like that?' When I see the little yellow dot turn green while I'm still fighting a first group of mobs at half health. With usually the answer being, 'be a different class/ascension/get higher ascensions/betray/find a berserker friend/etc'
  13. -Soteria- Well-Known Member

    Well my info on life burn may very well be outdated. Sadly, people were willing to share their methods early on were rewarded with huge nerfs, and that's why you likely won't hear specifics from any dps anymore and why I am choosing not to go into any further detail.

    All I have to say is, if you're not interested in changing your spec to test every endline or spell and see how it performs, then I don't want to hear about how this game type doesn't reward player skill when the people who are willing to do so end up being more effective than you. What do you think player skill is, if not adapting your spec and cast order to suit the content you're facing?
    captainbeatty451 likes this.
  14. captainbeatty451 Well-Known Member

    With the limited time I've been able to spend in there, I have tried multiple specs including full graverot vs rotflesh vs full potency rotflesh, soulburn vs energy clash, ability mod vs crit bonus prestige, etc. Only one I never actually tried out was lifeburn. And I didn't say I was unwilling to try it. Just that I have low hopes for it and heard it was bad. And regardless, the only thing lifeburn would do is make the part that already goes kind of fast go a little faster. The biggest areas that slow my group down are the trash sections, as we apparently do not have the insta vaporize aoe dps that some classes have available to them. For example, it takes my group multiple seconds to kill ONE trash mob. And yet some groups pull the whole group of them and vaporize the group almost instantly. And, I have noticed that some classes have things that eat massive chunks out of the boss health, whereas other than the few things I've mentioned, our boss kills are mostly just steady, normal kills unless something takes out a ton of health in one shot. Other groups are apparently better at learning what those things are and maxing out their efficiency with them. And that's great. That's the skill we've both mentioned. But from what I've seen, certain classes have more opportunities for that type of skill than others. And in some cases, by a long shot.

    Personally, my own performance in there doesn't bother me other than I don't see myself doing anything remarkable that would allow for drastically shorter times. Other classes, however, have certain mechanics that I have both witnessed and heard about that DO drastically improve your chances at faster times. So I could do all the testing in the world at how to make a necromancer better in there, but at the end of the day, I don't have enough skills to instantly vaporize a group of trash mobs, whereas some classes have those skills. I have nothing at my disposal to solve my current group's current issue, other than changing my class. And honestly, we're not even trying to get on the leaderboard. We're just trying to see how other groups do things that we seem incapable of. Right now, that's gather the trash very quickly and then almost instantly murder it.

    Also, if talking about things that work well gets them nerfed, well obviously that sucks, but don't you also think that the fact they are nerfed means they are not working as intended and are therefore giving an unfair advantage to the classes who have those abilities?

    Things I've found as a necromancer. Rotflesh still feels better than graverot, and does seem to hit hard when I use it. I think. maybe. Hard to tell. Elemental Tox seems to hit trash groups kinda sorta well? But hard to tell. Nothing I do seems to kill things super duper fast, and every time our group DOES kill things super duper fast, it is cascading force or implosion that was cast recently by someone else. Illusionist enhanced vigor gives over 100 more potency to whoever it is cast upon.
    Considering I sit at 25 potency in PG, that is a huge boost. And btw, scouts I've talked to sit at 36 potency and have 8 fervor on top of it. Is that balance? And which one would you rather take in your group? I know that I wish I had a beastlord alt that I could use for PG--again, based on working side by side with a beastlord and seeing what they do compared to what I do, and that was with him not even making a PG spec.

    So my opinion on it is, the more we talk about the experiences we have in there, the better it will be in the long term, as far as getting an instance that maybe is kind of close to balanced as possible.
  15. -Soteria- Well-Known Member

    No. Frankly, I think the devs don't have a solid vision for class balance and they nerf whatever the loudest crybabies say is op, without much regard for real fairness.

    Both. From what I've seen, scouts (especially brigs & rangers) are good at dispatching the trash with higher sustained aoe dps, but on the other hand scouts get very little benefit from time warp and mages (especially sorcs) have more tools to temp up potency, crit chance, etc for a single blast during time warp.

    I don't know if that is applicable to necromancer, and I don't know the class well enough to speculate beyond life burn. I will say, when you test spells, don't just cast them with no temps and conclude they're bad if the mob doesn't fall over dead. Nothing I know of works like that... Stuff is only good if you figure out the right circumstances and the right temps to cast it with.
    Jrox likes this.
  16. Earar Well-Known Member

    Yeah in PG there are classes stronger than others. Point

    Troub and illu are strong !
    Dirge seem a bit less seeked after and i don't know for coercers

    Tanks, it feels zerk and crusaders are the way to go. We ran groups, changef from a plate (pally or zerk can't remember) to bruiser and runs were a lit less smooth. In both agro and survivability.

    For healers, i feel inqui are really strong, templars manage also. Feels the only one who really struggle are warden (and maybe now shamans if u mass pull)

    For dps i don't know who work and who doesn't. I know BL do really well. Since stats aren't capped, i guess many can work but i don't think every dps has ways to almost OS named.

    And yeah class balance isn't the best there ...