EA already owned it when the whole Trammel/Felucca mess entered the picture. That was the first nail in the coffin for the long term subscribers.
I disagree. Pay to win had pretty firm definition at the onset of Korean MMOs. (about 15 years ago I think) It absolutely meant that game had a strong PvP component AND that there was no way to achieve best in slot gear without paying real cash. Hence "winning" in game against other players who could never compete with "whales" with just their skills. Perfect World International and Runes of Magic are great examples of P2W that are available to US audiences (not as much for RoM though as PvP is not a primary part of the game play). In eq2 you do not need to spend real money on anything beyond a sub and expac costs. Everything else is quality of life (QoL) improvements. Is PvP a significant part of the game? Nope. Can you "max" out your character with just playing the game? Yep. Do you need to ancient every spell and super fast ascension to experience all of the story? Nope. What are you winning? To kill the last raid mob the fastest in the world? I got news for you, your wallet does not make any difference in that. You actual skill and being in a guild which is dedicated to the same goal is. Neither Revelations nor Musketeers require you to be willing to pay $$ to be in their guild from looking at their websites (I do not know German so could not verify Unreal). P2P MMOs of 90's are gone. This is progress. I bet Blockbusters wishes time turned back as well, but it is what it is. F2P and Pay for convenience is here to stay forever more. Figure out which game works for you the best and go with it. Stop whining. People who try to recall the "good old days" are forgetting that currently about a dozen of high quality MMOs come out every year and that they have to compete in saturated market against others. We are not limited by just 3 choices anymore. No one can make a sub-only MMO without some serious cross-platform IP and even KOTOR with Star Wars lore + EA/Lucas backing failed to stay sub. There are 2 games on the market I can think of that are subs: WoW (which spent a TON of money on marketing every year and has the eSport thing going for it with Arena) and FF14, a name-brand cross-marketed through every game media as well as movies, with name recognition going back several decades. WoW also has Krono + char boo$t and I give them about a year before they start selling raid re-rolls for $$. MMOs have matured into new business model and those that did not evolve with market- died. Adjust, leave MMO scene altogether, or play regurgitated static content on emulators. Your choice.
Rev has expectations for your ascensions spells, epic weapon, and other prestigue items to be in slot, which require paying. Indeed it is a choice but you CAN NOT compete without paying.
I'd tend to agree, but I'd also be happy to see it get good treatment out in the pasture. Haha, classic. Well, I never claimed that SOE was innately more respectful of its customers than DBG under CN.
None of those REQUIRE paying. All can be, and are achieved by most people in good time just by playing the game. If you want to be in top 1%, you just have to invest and maximize your game time to be better than the other 99% of people. Right now it looks like Rev is recruiting, and considering how long expac has been out, there is no reason why you cannot meet their expectations, provided raiding with them has been your goal from the start.
That definition was not the original (the term was coined in early EQ release when Yantis had an item and plat selling company for EQ, this started near release, but was more commonly done on Kunar's release and when the EC Tunnel was in full trade mode). Your definition was used to justify buying items and gold. As I said, the definition was modified over the years to adapt to each player base who wanted to justify circumventing game play through the reasoning that "normal" people could never gain their items through game play and so because they were limited in time (this is where casual took on changing definitions as well) they were completely justified in paying real money to "keep up" with others. Pay to win was to specify the people who were paying Yantis real money to get their items rather than actually playing the game to get the item their self. So, instead of camping a given mob for hours on end and finally "winning" the roll against any others to gain the item, they simply paid real cash and that item was delivered to them in game via Yantis's service, hence the term... "paying to win" As I said, even the term casual has changed many times over the years to encompass new meanings. In early EQ, casuals were people who played a few hours a night, maybe a power session on one of the weekend days of 5-10 hours. They were putting 25-30 hours a week gaming and this was what we called "casual". The "hardcore" gamer was the one who didn't have a job, played 50+ hours a week, was on call to raid (contested raid content meant you had to be available 24 hours a day). They still exist, though they are few and far between. Also, some are being made as we speak (Pantheon). That said, you are correct, the mainstream industry took over and converted all systems into that model. Though claiming this is progress is merely a bias and it is in the same vein of saying turn based games were a "thing of the past". There is nothing wrong with you enjoying a game where you can turn on the cheat mode as you choose, but the focus of such play is less about game play and more about entertainment. Nothing wrong with that, but there are people out there who really like game play and that "difficulty" in progress (death penalties, long based progression, difficult content, no hand holding, etc...) is the point, it is not viewed as a "inconvenience" or something that impedes "fun", as it is what we think IS fun due to its risk/reward, time/effort/reward play. No. FTP is poor model for people who enjoy games. those of us who don't simply want dumb entertainment won't accept them, which is why these games are slowly dying and going back to the original model and audience they were born from... that is... the casual "pogo" / casual games of the past where these non-gamers. As I said, your position is one of arrogance and bias, one I might add that was taken to task in the single player game market with the return of many turn based systems and more complex "old school" game play. There is a market for a return to games, as not all of us are happy cheating our own play. All we ask is you respect that others have different styles of play and expectations and that you do not come to our games (as people like you have throughout the years) and "whine" about how the game doesn't cater to your "casual play" aka cheat mode play and how the game should be changed to accommodate you. There are no "high quality" MMOs coming out every year. There are bunch of gimmick clones with PTW stores and these games fall to the side constantly, which is why people still return to games like this and others of the age old days because they remember that there used to be games with actual game play and not simply a slot machine of continuous casual entertainment. Most however do not return, because people like you have demanded the casualization, the de-game play of games over the years. EQ/EQ2 was slowly gutted by Smed and turned into a sham, hence their need to sell it. WoW was turned into a gimmick of pointless gimmick play. DDO was gutted in its complexity and turned into a shallow mobile like game like many games today. LoTRO was killed at Moria as they decided to chase the PTW cheaters with specialized models of design (legendary weapons that would fit into a store sale model). TOR was a result of appealing to entertainment before game play and they wasted an enormous amount of their budget on voice acting rather than paying attention to the game play progression and design. TOR failed because it is a crap game, not because of a pay model. Point is, we do remember the good days and many of us would like a truly old school game again. This is why Pantheon may be a solution, but... I see lots of people who think like you now going to games like Pantheon and demanding all the same things they have in games today. Apparently, these people love their FTP/PTW models so much they can't seem to stick with any game. /shrug Actually, it maturity in the games today is lacking. Games used to be games, not just mindless entertainment. What you see today is not an evolution of gaming, but a marketing commercialization of gaming. They don't make games anymore, they make entertainment. Like I said though, your arrogance is a dying breed. In the single player market, we put you folks in your place aand showed you there was a market for old school. MMOs won't ever see the day of their original market (not surprising, the non-gamer and instant grat console gamer changed the market), but we will see the concept eventually return. We are currently in an evolution of design and accessible means. Survival games are just around the corner of providing server models that have the complete capability of providing MMO style play and design. This will spread and you will see a new market where people host their own servers, design their own style of content and people like me, and others who love "game play" and not cheat mode can enjoy new and exciting content all the while people like you can play your FTP/PTW cheat servers. So it is a win/win and only a narcissistic would have a problem with everyone getting games they enjoy.
You have to pay to have prestige items in slot, you have to pay to have your epic in slot, and the Ascension spells they want need to be atleast expert for asc combo's. You don't walk into high end raid guilds half azz, it's never worked that way, never going to work that way.
You're right, I was thinking of when EA disbanded Origin in the early 2000s, but they were owned by EA since the early 1990s. I still think that regardless of ownership, the end result would have been the same.
There is no source of relevant authority, that has issued a clearly defined set of conditions that must be met, for a game to be declared "Pay To Win". No one speaks for the masses, only themselves. There is no uniform agreement or acceptance, there is only personal opinion. With the information about the next expansion including a level rap raise to 110, I stand by my previously expressed position with even greater confidence. My opinion on where EQ2 crossed the P2W line, is described by the following: Guild_A and Guild_B enter a new expansion with a level cap raise (level 110 incoming) Guild_A and Guild_B are even, when it comes to gear, skill and play time. Everyone in Guild_A uses the Marketplace to buy XP and Vitality positions. Everyone in Guild_A uses the Marketplace to buy higher versions of all their abilities, the instant they come available. No one in Guild_B uses the Marketplace. In the example above, players in Guild_A will have a significant advantages over those in Guild_B. They will level quicker, deal more damage, and enjoy greater survival capacity. This is a situation where influence from the Marketplace has gone far beyond "cosmetic fluff". If both are comparable raid guilds, it would provide a distinct advantage. This will allow them clear content quicker and easier than their counterparts, providing more loot, and compounding the situation even further. I have no doubt that DBG is looking forward to the revenue from purchased ability upgrades, in the new expansion (just as SOE did).
So explain please, in this scenario what does Guild A "win"? The only thing I can see is server firsts. They aren't going to be able to do anything that Guild B won't eventually be able to do as well, only without the upfront expenditure. Seems to me that Guild B "wins"; they get to to the same content, eventually, for less cash.
A raid guild that is beating itself against a wall and not clearing content due to a mechanic that can be bypassed with a credit card will collapse. Defeating MMO content is winning.
What are you, the densest motherfucker to ever live? At every point during the expansion, the players in Guild A are vastly more powerful than the players in Guild B, because they pulled out their wallet.
"At every point during the expansion, the players in Guild A are vastly more powerful than the players in Guild B, because they pulled out their wallet."
Its quiet simple really If you don't buy certain Ascending ability to GM level at least 4 person per raid - you can't beat current content and you can't progress. You can't progress - you loose
To elaborate even more This is MMORPG - hence you normally aren't solo but group. PUGs all but dead now so you limited to your gameplay by the guilds, once guild run into situation that it can't progress within game content ... guild die. To progress in this game you ought pay $$ No combo in Ascending before experts if nothing else you still will pay for adepts Some ascending skill required to be at GM and above level to progress (same crap $$) While "epic" skill made theoretically possible to get to ancient level w/o paying for it ... it highly unlikely The way DB introduced controlled inflation in game give you only 1 reliable and fast source of in game currency. Buy Krono for $$ sell it in game for plat - at this moment it steady clocks at 1.4M on HoF (cheapest)
Sounds like Perfect World Entertainment design to me. Then again, many of us saw this coming years ago when the game went FTP. Such is a natural progression of such a system. By its very concept, it was expected that content would eventually mirror that marketing practice. This is why many of us way back then scoffed at the games going FTP and warned what it would eventually end up as.
The whole atmosphere of this forums basically reeks of "Go play WoW, because people actually realize they're losing due to mechanics and poor organization rather than because they're minimum wage or middle-class workers, not Whales".
I don't see that...what I see are players who love this game and want it to survive so they bring issues they see or experience to the table to discuss.
