Sounds to me you had some really bad tanks in your groups. You dont have to bring the one that does the most DPS. You just need one that can hold agro. lol thats it. Sounds boring i know, but i worry about that before looking at my utility for the group.
Excuse me? Lol. Holding aggro isn't a class specialty. It isn't something that sets one tank apart from another. It's literally the most basic necessity of being a tank, followed by being able to equip more than a loin cloth. Raidwide amends would be worthless. Raidwide lay hands sounds like it would be nearly as worthless. Group wide caster-oriented version of combat mastery? That is something I would take in a heart beat. Raidwide DPS is literally ALL that matters. Everything else is balanced on a pin head, but DPS is open ended. Any tank class can live. Any tank class can hold aggro. Just because you, or people you surround yourself cannot, does not mean the reality of the situation changes. Especially in high end situations where DPS is certainly a contributor to your ability to hold aggro. Paladin Utility to a group is nearly nonexistent. Your clicky charms and such probably provide ten times the benefit to your group than any of your inherent class abilities do.
Just from the x2, but yeah! (For those that haven't done the zone, this is a pure single-target fight.) Are we the highest DPS tank? No, but we can do ok, I think. And, we might be the lowest DPS. I'm not sure, having not been in a real high DPS raid force, so I don't know what tanks are putting out in those forces.
I'll concede... a well played, well geared pally can do more then 5Ms. Note to self, get clarion dps AA and a troub/shamam
I can and will hold agro, dps or not {Second bold} Eh, maybe for Brawlers, Warriors and SKs you do. But clearly you dont tinker around with the Paladin enough to know this
Before all the hubris gets in the way, constructive things include: 1. Highlight utility that IS special to Paladins 2. Or finding none, propose some utility that is special to Paladins. I think there is mutual agreement that threat generation on pallies is fine. The question remains is what else can they bring to the table, as MT and not MT?
The issue is, all of the things Paladins had before are not as critical now that the meta has changed. Primary aspects of Paladin were our solid save rotation being devout sacrament and stonewall. Now, the DR on DS is either not enough, or not necessary depending on the fight.. because HP pools are so insane. Even when it is useful, other tanks have similar things or better things to handle the same situation. The meta shifted at that point to reflect being the primary means of paladin contribution. The problem is, since DPS numbers have gone through the roof, even the ideal situation for reflect was providing less and less group dps, even in high incoming raid environments. The current situation isn't 100% clear to me, but from everything I've gathered, the situation remains the same: Fighters have basic responsibilities of hold aggro and survive. All fighters can potentially do both of these things. Some have better snaps than others, but that doesn't matter as much as it used to. When deciding a fighter, you pick whomever has the greatest contribution, with DPS (either self provided or group utility) being of the most use, since relying on your fighter for group survivability is not ideal. None of the paladin's utility has scaled properly, and the last set of significant changes (Prestige Tree 2) went mostly unchanged since I tried to get it tweaked, and certainly benefit other classes more than it did Paladin. In conclusion: Paladins have gained nothing, and they have gotten weaker over time. If I had to put money on the best classes to have right now, it would probably be Zerker and Brawler, with Guardian somewhere just above or below SK, with Paladin at the bottom. Maybe SK at the bottom, if their DPS hasn't scaled well either..but I doubt that. Then again, Paladins have a lot of crutches for bad players.. and I'm not sure there are many good players left. Paladins do well in adversity, but the goal should never be "success" resulting from surrounding yourself with bad players.
Well stated argument. I would support your assertion that scaling of abilities didn't scale well with the recent change to Demonstration of Faith where it was allowed to crit and lowered base values. I considered that math to indicate that spell does did scale well in today's mechanics. Of second consequence, the weapon bonus damage from shields has not return as of yet because Tot do not activate that AA as has been supported, tested, and confirm the bug forum on that topic. Sure, some additional weapon damage bonus is not going change the world but that bug fix should return some numbers. Last interesting thing to note is Faith. It provides some of the reflect mechanic spoken too however it doesn't provide great dps but limited usage by way of very short usage window and very long cool down. Here's looking at you Tepid Depths Spell-shields.
LMAO!! Leather tanks with loads of avoidance over Plate tanks is a crutch for bad players. I hate grouping with brawlers, they cant always hold their own nor hold agro as well.
Bad Brawlers = bad aggro Good Brawlers = good aggro His point was simply that Brawlers will provide more utility (and DPS) than Paladins, and, thus, are more desirable in a purpose-built raid force.
Dude it seems like your new here so I'll let you know. When EQ2 devs want to know something about the paladin class they ask to Maergoth. or boli. Telling him he don't know how to play his paladin is like telling Tiger Wood how to play golf. You sure can but you betther bring some feat of arms to back up your claim.
Boli is in charge, or something. I'm just in the stands with sunglasses and a baseball cap swearing under my breath.
I'll just let you scrub Pallies keep thinking you need to do any dps at all. I'll just be over here with mine holding agro and letting my gear and clickies dps for me.
Scrub ? so I guess that you main tanked some ubber boss to have such an attitude ? I don't know what MMO your playing but it must not be EQ2 since even priest DPS is taken in account.
You shouldnt rely on information from someone who stopped played back in TOV and hasnt come back to actually tell you what utility this class brings to the group. But go ahead. Believe them since they "designed" the class. lol.
