Rashaak wrote: Seriously, go back to my full list of play styles and accompanying stats and as an SK look over the list and imagine if you could equip *any* weapon in my list, cause that's what I've been proposing from the first. "If you're liberal with who can equip what" is the phrase I used, and the only restrictions I was proposing on who could equip what is when I said the 2Hers for melee priests should have the highest spreads, since they're so dependent on crits, so those weapons should probably be priest-only. And yes, I *do* know what's best for an SK, when they're doing certain things. When they're tanking they need tanking stats, when they're DPSing they need DPS stats. As I said, it's not that hard. Is this going to be situational and depend on what other gear any particular SK has? Sure it is. But that does *not* change the fact that STR increases an SK's DPS, that INT increases an SK's DPS, and that a STR/INT weapon is going to be highly desired by most SKs. Is that going to be the only weapon SK's want? No, of course not. Sometimes they'll want a STA/AGI weapon from my list, sometimes they may want a STA/INT weapon from my list... Your little section about melee vs. casting, and how to base weapons off that dynamic, was basically recapping what I've been proposing the whole time, albeit with a couple missing pieces. I think that's rather ironic.
Eh, looks like this thread is just turning into a bit of back-and-forth on semantics and interpretations. I'm currently plugging some of the earlier suggestions into a spreadsheet and discussing things with the rest of the mechanics team, so will keep you updated when there's more to say.
Item Name Item Skill Equip Slot Delay Dmg STR AGI STA WIS INT Health Power War Pike 2HP - Great Spear Two-Handed 4 85.3 65 45 0 0 0 180 70 Halberd 2HP - Great Spear Two-Handed 4 84.5 0 0 45 35 35 70 180 Leafblade 1HP - Spear Primary/Secondary 1.2 67.6 65 45 0 0 0 90 50 Spear 1HP - Spear Primary/Secondary 1.6 67.6 65 45 0 0 0 70 70 Trident 2HP - Great Spear Two-Handed 5 84.5 65 0 0 45 0 100 150 Voulge 2HP - Great Spear Two-Handed 2.5 84.5 0 0 45 35 35 70 65 Found something I would like to see (Most of this is just me hoping name wise and I have no idea about the delay) I could also see a Pally version with Wis instead of Int. Crusader’s Lance 2HP – Great spear Two-handed 4 85.3 65 0 0 0 45 70 180 When im using a 2 hander on my SK I don’t care at all about HP I want STR and INT so I can do damage And SKs cant use daggers so Spears is are only pircing option.
Istar@Mistmoore wrote: So, what you are saying is, if I am a crit spec'd guardian (almost all are...) then I have no choice but to use a sub par weapon? I would have the choice of either rendering my crit achievements almost useless due to a fast swinging weapon, a weapon with good stats but with a spell proc, or a weapon with only 1 stat I would find useful. Who knows, maybe your idea would work, but it would need to be done by someone that knows the classes better than I do, and better than you do, obviously. And as for the bolded part, I already did, have you read it? feel free to comment on anyone elses ideas in this thread as well, instead of just saying yours is the best and we should all follow you and your crap-tastic idea.
sliderhouserules wrote: As I said previously, you have made valid points and your points are almost in line with mine, however I also said to base weapons on specific stat placement is not the way to go. It needs more simplification and variety. Your description says as an SK, I most likely will need 2 to 3 weapons on hand to use depending on how I play. I don't want that. I want one weapon that I can rely on, because it will be my CA's and Spell's that determine how good I am, not the weapon. The weapon is just an enhancement to help advance my skills; not to be the deciding factor of my skills. Your suggestions also says that there would need to be a high delay on all weapons I disagree. Casters don't need high delay on their weapons because their standing back 10 meters throwing in spells or heals most of the time. Sure you have battlepriests and battlemage's now, but they wouldn't be going for a caster weapon anyways, they'll be going for melee. The dynamic I suggested would be based off damage, delay and damage rating. The off-set to that would be the stats included on the weapon. Since as you already stated as well as many others know, STR determines damage in melee combat, so a melee based weapon would have a primary stat of STR. From there...the melee based weapons could be spec'd with stats that 'help' melee, such as AGI for avoidance/block, STA for hps, INT for poison proc's. Not every melee weapon will have STR/AGI/STA/INT on it, there would be a variety with the only defining stat being STR. For caster type weapons, the enhancement to their skills would be in INT or WIS depending on if your nuker or healer. They have a higher damage rating, but lower delay, the defining character would be INT or WIS. Overall...the weapons will equal out in Melee Damage while enhancing the role thats chosen by the player, without defining the weapon to a specific class.
Rashaak wrote: I actually envision most people only needing two weapons from my list, in general. Maybe three. I don't see this as a bad thing. One of the main complaints we have as Weaponsmiths is the low number of slots we fill, and it is now very clearly stated by the devs that we are intended to share those 1.5 slots with Woodworkers. I think people would be quite willing to buy multiple weapons if each weapon is able to be more effective at what it's intended to do for them. Nearly everybody I know already carries around multiple weapons. My full post in the previous thread addressed your comments about delay. I asked in the global channels, hundreds of mages in those channels, and people told me they don't want fast weapons. Still, in my original lists, I did give mage weapons the fastest delays... I just didn't put them down at 1.5 which is a worthless speed for a weapon in T8, IMO. One of the main things I think you and others have tripped up on is how I labeled my play styles. Just cause a category says Mage DPS doesn't mean only mages should be able to equip those weapons. SKs clearly have crossover with Battle Mages. Scouts clearly have room to perform "Melee DPS". I think the whole restriction mechanic that says druids can't wield 2H slashers is a bit stale and serves no real purpose. Why not let everybody equip all weapons (with the exception of melee priests, which I've clarified again in my last couple posts)? As I've said, if you look at my list with that in mind I think it gets rid of a lot of the negative reaction some of you had. I also purposely excluded any stat combos that don't help you either do more DPS, or survive. WIS is nearly useless in the game currently, except for those classes that get power from it, so it only shows up in my list where it would give power to priests (but Paladins, etc. would be able to equip most of those weapons too, remember).
I looked over Noaani's list again and I don't have any major objections to that approach. I do have some minor ones though. As I said in my previous reply, WIS is nearly useless in the game currently. I think the mage weapons would be better if the WIS were swapped with STA. And I think the differences in the delays listed is too large. I asked in the global channels, hundreds of mages in those channels, and people told me they don't want fast weapons. Anything lower than a 3.0 delay is undesirable, I believe. This is just my opinion based on my experience and research, as I've said. Also, the earlier comment that Rangers want fast weapons doesn't bear out in my experience. My wife has played a Ranger since launch, and she has always had the same, or better, haste as my Paladin. Her CAs have equivalent cast times to mine. So I see no reason a Ranger would want a 1.5 delay if a Paladin wants 4.0 or whatever. And just to beat the horse to death, I would love to see all 1H weapons have two stats, and all 2H weapons have three.
sliderhouserules wrote: I purposly didn't put a delay on mage weapons at all. Most mages would happily trade all forms of melee attacking from a weapon for 1 or 2 points of int, so delay is the absolute last thing they look at on a weapon. As for the ranger comment, it has to do with situation more than anything else. A ranger that plays the class well (the ranger in particular I am talking about has ACT set up to cue a small audio file every time he auto attacks so he can time things better...) will see the value in a faster swinging weapon. It has nothing to do with combat art cast timers, and everything to do with the delay on weapons, and how the game switches between melee and ranged auto attack. But, I agree, there is absolutly no way anyone can design a system that will make everyone happy. I do, however, strongly believe that the list I posted in this thread has the bases covered and is, as Domino wanted, a good foundation.
DominoDev wrote: LOL...owned by the language filter. Maybe we should just call it the "Really Nasty Man's Sword"?
sliderhouserules wrote: Woodworkers have always made some weapons. That is nothing new. Most of my toons carry multiple weapons. At one stage my guard was carrying and using at various times six (not including his bow). My guard is going to be using MC weapons this expansion (since he has T7 fabled ones) but if he were I would like there to be a meaningful choice of weapons available to him. Three pairs of stats would be worth considering - STR/STA, STR/AGI, AGI/STA, but only one triple - STR/STA/AGI So pairs would be better than triples. If there were both pairs and triples on similar weapons the triple would have lower values, but one pair would likely be of more importance, so the triple would not be my choice. Pairs on 1H weapons and a triple on a 2H weapon might work well. My swashie would go for STR/INT normally. My illusionist would go for INT only as a first choice. Having INT only on the 2 handed choice, and INT/WIS or INT/STA on the one handed ones would makes for an interesting tradeoff, providing there is more INT on the 2 hander than on the 1 hander + a tome/orb, or it is close with some other bonus such as +disruption or +subugation. At level 65 he is still using the Prismatic Rod plus a dragonhide tome. My fury is using a xegonite scimitar. WIS/INT is good for her. STA/INT might also work, or STA/WIS/INT
sliderhouserules wrote: I don't trip out... I disagreed with you, explained why, and still disagree. Not just because how you labeled them but also with 2 stat weapons. I don't agree with making 8 different categories based off Melee DPS, Mage DPS, or whatever...it's too complex...
Terron@Splitpaw wrote: Yeah, I know. One thing I was hoping would come out of this revamp was a full lineup of weapons made by Weaponsmiths that have options for all classes, specifically mages. IE we'd finally be able to compete with Woodworkers on some equal footing. It was a bit naive, but hey... I don't mind sharing the market with WWs, it's not a change from how it is now, so not that big of a deal. It's just clarified now that any expansions to the class(es) or changes will try to avoid crossover. We have one of the smallest markets, and we have to share it. Just that basic thought sucks.
Rashaak wrote: Tripping out isn't the same as being tripped up... I know you disagree with me, you've just constantly explained yourself in ways that makes it clear you didn't understand what I was saying when it came to several specific points. If all you want to do is disagree with me and not try to understand what I really said then that's fine. I still think it's funny that your little explanation about melee vs. caster DPS was basically explaining what I've been proposing, and that you still don't seem to realize that.
sliderhouserules wrote: Maybe you as well don't understand my stance, and don't seem to realize it? We'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that and move forward shall we?
Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote: Take a look at the Weoponsmith NPC Vendors, in most cities, and you will accually see like 4 times the number of Standard looking(not the cool flashy things like in RoK) weopon styles there, when they revamped the recipes along time ago they took out most of those weopons.
Rashaak wrote: Just because this shield came back up again... I will elaberate Why this shield is not a SK sheild.. Other then the base stats... The Deal is directly with the Proc.. No This is not just Me, this is Any SK who knows thier class and how we operate ... Shadowknights Have 5 Combart Arts Total... Deatch Cirlce (Not even full CA part spell and part CA, its just climbs with STR on one part.) Agony Line Brand Line Shield Bash Line kick line The shields basis is a DPS shield.. "Our DPS" is dots, If our Dots are down, We are not getting the extra hits in that we can.. SO that is our focus. If we switch this focus to CA's our DPS drops Dramatically. Especially since the only thing we could litterly Spam is the 4 Agony, Brand, Kick, Shield at .45 sec recovery... Keep in mind the Bash is very low dmg at all .. our only good CA damage spell is Agony Line going just over 1k then compare it to our spells.... So.. I dont know if the Pallies are in the better boat for CA's or not. But SK's are turning more towards Direct Melee instead of this or more protection. The Green dragons shield is worth it more. Unless our Ratio with the proc goes up. -Edit my agony is a little high due to in my DPS setup I have Some gear with Spell/CA combo ups.. So CA = 210 which is upping it from the norm.
Rashaak wrote: Appologies, fixed. Istar wrote: First, the proc on this shield is not DPS, it is a thread increase proc. Second, this proc will increase your (or any other crusaders) DPS at a point in combat where you find yourself able to deal out the least amount of DPS. So, you have a shield with nice stats that increases your hate at the point in a fight when you most need it, and you don't like it? Sure, sounds to me like a well played SK...
Haven't read all 10 pages, so just going to reply to Domnio's post directly. Replying just as a weaponsmith too, since I don't have a woodworker and thus don't feel too qualified to comment on that class. I also may diverge a bit from her original question with some of my comments. 1) Tier 8 needs a one handed spear with wisdom as one of it's stats. I get a lot of requests from shamans just entering tier 8 for mastercrafted one handed spears with wisdom. The lower tier has them via the voulge, it is one handed as a tier 7 and below weapon. Yet it's two handed as a tier 8. I've lost orders due to not being able to make a one handed spear with wisdom. 2) Make ALL the tiers consistant. Yes, reviewing the tier 8 list is nice, but let's have the tier 7 weapons enough like the tier 8 that we don't get exactly what I described above. It gets confusing and frustrating for both me and my customers if I can't make a tier 8 version of what I made them as a tier 7 or 6 weapon. 3) Make all the weapons craftable, at least from tier 3 on up, when one gains the actual class of "weaponsmith". Even if one were to say "Oh, a level 29th weaponsmith might not be able to make a "Wazzat" until tier 5, it's a complicated weapon", I should be able to as an 80th level weaponsmith to go back and figure out how to make all of my tier 8 weapons as lower level items. 4) Actual designs. Suggest more variety one one handed swords. We used to have the Flamberge before LU24. I loved that design. I'd not get order for it per-se, but I'd show one to a customer, and suddenly just based on look the long sword order the guy made becomes a flamberge order. Asian designs like a Katana or Wakizashi. I'm sure such would be popular, and maybe solicit a response like I'd get from showing a flamberge to someone as a possible alternate design. Some of the exotic shaped weapons, like some of the kind of oddball shapes one sees in Kunark. A one handed broadsword more like a Norse sword, with the heavy counterweight for the pommel. Could see a Halasian or Dwarf wanting a sword picking something like that. A stubby wider shortsword, more like a gladius. Okay, one that will probably be considered more woodworker, I don't ever remeber seeing nunchucks. If such is feasable from an art standpoint, I'm sure plenty of monks would love to have a nunchuck or two. Don't know the names of a lot of dagger designs, but as a weaponsmith I more or less have one mage weapon, a dagger. The Dirk at tier 8 is so "generic" statwise that I never get any requests for it. Below tier 8 the Dirk has such horrid stats though IMO that it's a waste to even mention it to a customer. But anyway, a couple other dagger style weapons, maybe some for mages, some for scout classes. Believe it or not, a bullwhip. I do get people asking if I can make one. The scourge (which isn't a tier 8 weapon, there is one tier 7 and below) I also get some occasional requests for also. So, one or two whip weapons might be called for. 5) What I don't suggest, even if they look neat is things that look too much like they are from another genre. Other then the warden epic looking somewhat like one, not sure I want to see something that would look like a Klingon Bat'Leth (sp?) from Star Trek, for instance. (Well, unless there is a race that makes quasi-Klingonish looking weapons, in which case I'd be less adverse to such as long as it's not too much of a copy). 6) Again not really adressing Domino's question..but...metal ammo for weaponsmiths for every tier please.
Noaani wrote: When Equiped: When target uses a combat art this spell will cast firsedong on target of combat art Inflicts 103 Heat Damage on Target [I cannot control my vocabulary] Is this supposed to proc from ?!!?! ? ok lets Kill the rest of our Hate Gaining spells and Dmg to compensate for a pethetic Shield Proc that will not only Pull us down but kill us in aggro, just try to get the dam thing to even proc.. from one of the 4 CA's listed.. 2 of which have a spell component. For a wopping 103 heat dmg to each CA used... Yah this a real Fning bright idea... What don't you parse, don't even know how this works ? Sorry Real SK's already parsed this junk of a proc out and its Completely dam clear its uselessness. If SK needs threat. they go off and get nathsar or CoT ... bottom line.. Get yourself a Green Dragon shield with the block on that, you are completly, utterly better off. lets have further fun with this... So Im going to trade off my Spells for CA's ... Most common used spells .. coil - 2269dmg - 2644 overall threat malice - 1612 dmg/threat insinuate- 589dmg - 2015 aura - 1316 so ... 7,587 ... So this is not even my harding spells or dots at all... Which I would focus on next .. hell this keeping it to same recovery time... But No we want to make full use of this shield proc for this ... boot - 775 with shield 808dmg slam - 524 dd - w/shield 627 total threat. 2,818 anguish = 1010 - 1113dmg brand 528 - 701 threat... for 5440 ... yeah great threat trade off there ! hell great for dps ...overall the shield proc gives an SK 412dmg something no where near worth relying on. and to go against the basics of an SK in spell casting order for...
