Outfitter weapon types

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Domino, Mar 31, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    Thank you, this is great material for a conversation.

    Like I said, I've played a paladin since launch, and I'm a [I cannot control my vocabulary] fine tank if I do say so myself. Paladins and SKs are pretty much identical in what they need to do their jobs well (I'm really not sure what DMIstar was trying to get at earlier). I haven't leveled through RoK to 80 yet (only 75, I had a baby, game time tends to go down when that happens...) so let me use an example from T7 to illustrate something. When Unrest first released, I was 70 and had OK gear. I've been a Weaponsmith for a long time, and I use my crafted weapons as a point of pride. Eat the dog food, so to say. I never buy gear off the broker, I always try to go out and earn it myself, weapons especially. When Unrest first launched, I got my [I cannot control my vocabulary] chewed up in there with my regular group. I had the typical STR/STA/AGI long sword. Those first few runs through Unrest I would have loved to have had a higher-stat'ed STA/AGI sword to help me absorb another couple blows (especially if it had parry or block on it!). Once we got the hang of the zone I was then able to move to offensive stance, and at that point I would have loved to have been able to switch to a higher-stat'ed STR/INT sword. As it was, I used that STR/STA/AGI sword until I got the Modinthalis.

    [edit: I forgot to say that my point in this illustration was that I don't agree with your "few and far between" comment, as I am a typically MC geared grouping tank most of the time, and it only takes 2 or 3 runs through a zone before my healer and dirge are comfortable enough with things that I can switch to offensive and some DPS gear.]

    The reason I'm pushing 2 stats is cause the stats can be higher. I know I've said this before, and I'll agree to disagree here, that's fine. But why isn't it a better idea to have 2-stat'ed weapons so we can have higher stats on them? (And the STA/INT weapon that AratornCalahn says he would want *is* in my list.) Trying to get all the good combos of three stats just seems like it's off the charts to me, as well, in the number of weapons we'd be asking Domino to add.

    Honest questions, I'm not trying to be obtuse.
  2. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    I need to go back and look over your list more closely then, cause the first couple times the list just seemed overwhelming, and asking for that many weapons from Domino didn't seem realistic to me.
  3. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    I agree, it 'looks' like a lot, but when compaired to what is in game, it is not that bad really.
    On top of that, should she do what was in that post, including what I suggested for imbues, we would have a whole lot more variation in avalible mastercrafted weapons, but it would also take a LOT less database room, and when she goes on to change it to earlier teirs, it would take a lot less of her time than the current methods.
    More choice, better customisation, less database space, less developer time... all up I like it. (although, to do it they will need to do a small amount of coding to allow for the imbue method I suggested, but I would assume that it could be done with a varitaion of the adornment code)
  4. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    While obviously 2 stated items would be able to have more of those stats than 3 stated weapons do, there should not, by any means, ONLY be 2 stated weapons. Reasons for this, at least to me, are obvious.
    First of all, most mages only want one stat, int. Mages do not get hit, and thus do not need high sta or agi, they do not need str past being aboe to carry what they have on them, and wis is only of use to increase their resists. A pure int weapon would be the top choice for the vast majority of mages.
    Tanks will, most of the time, want morethan one stat, with warriors and brawlers wanting str/sta/agi in varing amounts for varing situations, and crusaders needing all 5 stats for various things. Healers also lay claim to wanting all 5 stats for various things, but have less use for agi than the other 4 stats.
    Scouts have little use for anything but str/int while in a group, but once out soloing, both sta and agi are useful to them, along with str/int.
    So, all up, the situations that 2 stats are all that are needed far outweigh the situations where 1, 3, 4 or even 5 stats are needed.
    While it is obviously not possible to create an item that fills every single possible use, or every single possible stat combo, making a range with 1, 2 and 3 stat combos seems (to me) to be the best alternative that has a chance of working.
    In the list I did, there were 2 stat combos (though I admit, there was no agi/sta combo, that may be something that could be added). There were also various 3 stat combos, and 3 single stat weapons for mages.
    Basically, a variety.
  5. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    Mages do get hit though. I recently switched my wizard to the Battlemage line with the self wards in the Wizard tree and it made an absolute world of difference.

    Wanting lots of stats on weapons is obvious, sure, if you want the weapon lineup to try to go from end to end. I was going for making weapons more effective weapons, not stat boosters. And I was holding onto what might very well be antiquated at this point in the life of EQ2: being able to do different types of damage (pierce, slash, crush) with different weapons that address the same focus.

    I've been watching BSG instead of looking over your weapons , so I'll have to do that tomorrow.
  6. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    On all of my mages, I always assume that should a mob get within melee range of me, I am dead. However, I am aware that not all mages think this way, and as such, I put in weapons with survival stats for mages.
    The stats on weapons do not make them more effective as weapons. Str will make you swing harder, and is the reason for me putting str on all weapons in that list that would be reasonably expected to be used to hit a mob with. The thing that truely seperates weapons from each other is the damage type and delay (and the damage spread if you want to start getting into details, but this is less important for mastercrafted weapons, though I do have an opinion on how I think that should be done, which I may or may not post).
    The list I made had weapons of the same stat profile, but in each damage type, and with varing delays (the 'scout' section only has 2 different stat profiles, but each profile had 4 weapons, 1 of each damage type a scout is able to use, in both fast and slow delay flavour).
    The 2 handed weapons I put in were mainly for DPS tanks (crusaders in particular, as warriors tend to go buckler spec or duel wield for DPS, and brawlers go duel wield mostly as well, but I did make sure they had 2 hander options), and as such, had melee DPS stats (as well as some with int). I did not include a pure tanking spec'd 2 handed weapon, even though some may want one. I think the reasons for this are realitvly obvious.
  7. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    Theres 46 Crafted Weapons Total. Just Add 2 More and You can Profile up 2 Per Class Type, That is all that is needed...

    Now Some Stat wise will seem the Same.. But different Effects /type can help span that out. Yeah Some Classes will Coincide with that stats as well.

    Theres Plenty of weapons stats to fill, Lets just put down Desired Stat Combinations and let them sort it out. I have yet to see someone asking for 5 different weapons just for thier class.
  8. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
    Dividing avalible items to the number of classes in the game is what lead to no plate healer gear in RoK.
    This is a bad idea right from the start.
  9. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    so your saying inquisters need 5 weapons and Templars need 5 weapsons ? or one needs more then two ? Ok how ?

    The reply makes no sense lol

    Inquisters Have : 2 weapons
    Templars Have : 2 weapons

    Thats 4 to this archetype inquister/templar.... But where not meshing the stats on all 4. 2 is for one 2 is for the
    other..

    Doesnt mean a temp cant use the inquisters one...

    I dont see why one class needs a million weapons and the other class does not, And I always thought there was lack of raid gear for the plate healers due to they where not specced right and its was not specced for them.. AKA what SK's Have been giong through expansion after expansion.
  10. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
    No, I am saying the idea of basing weapons around classes by number is a pathetic idea.
    On top of that, why should their be an artificial restriction on how many mastercrafted weapons are in the game?
    Edit: have you actually read this thread?
  11. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
    Istar...

    You didn't read my post clearly did you? Yes there are 46 weapons in Tier 8, of those 46 weapons 6 of those are Bruiser/Monk only. So you wouldn't be adding 2 more...you'd be adding 8 more minimuly.
  12. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Regarding stats on the weapons:
    2 stat idea while makes some sense, because it provides more to two main stats of a class the weapons are not as universal. I believe this is one of the reasons Armor started getting 3 stats on them a while back.
    With 3 stats on an item, where one stat is primary and the other 2 secondary, it creates a need beyond just a specific playstyle. Also...trying to base weapons off their stats is NOT a good way to go and that is obvious due to the continuing arguement here.
    Categorized weapons off of stats is a no no, because you can not, i repeat can not possibly know EVERY single playstyle out there. Sure, this class's primary stat is this, and this class is this, but that should not be the deciding factor on how stats get distributed to weapons.
    Here's the thing...what does a player do when adventuring and killing mobs? They are either killing the mob by doing melee damage or casting spells right?
    So...the categories of weapons should fall in those two lines.
    Melee and Caster

    Weapons categorized into Melee, will have spec's specific to doing more damage thus higher delay, with a lower damage rating, with a Primary stat of STR. Secondary stats would vary per weapon between 2 of 3 stats STA, AGI, INT.
    Weapons categorized into Caster types, will have spec's specific to enhancing the casters spell damage ability have a quicker delay, with a higher damage rating. A primary stat of either WIS or INT, with secondary stats that would vary per weapon between 2 of 4 stats STA, AGI, WIS/INT.

    I feel this is the only way to really determine how a weapon will enhance the adventurer. Basing weapons off of stats will only segragte players to certain weapons only, rather than giving them a choice and a variety.

    Sorry sliderhouse, but I do not agree with a 2 stat weapon based off what you feel cover's 'all' the major playstyles. I think I have proven already there are multiple different playstyles, and saying that because this person is an SK, he should only be using STR/INT weapons, or this Ranger over here should only be using STR/AGI weapons. Your trying to decide the weapons for the player, rather than let the player decide for themselves.
  13. ARCHIVED-DMIstar Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    Actually I did not read your post to find out the number of MC weapons.. I actually went and counted.. Why would need to read your post clearly then ?
    Secondandly one point does come to mind here. Bruiser/monks do both use 2handers and dual wield 1handers. Which magically comes up to 6 weapons, On my theory I would be takeing away 2 weapons from this class archetype in a whole.. Not adding weapons ..... I dont where adding came up in the number 48 ;P
    So i Stand corrected monk could use 3 weapons speced to them... Seems be what they did from the start anyway..
    My direct point is, if you make 2 items leaning towads one class.. You will make a diversity in weapons..
    Between Guards/zerkers you will have 4 weapons lower delays pretty well help them and you will have a block of low delay weapons, Pallies/SKs will have a block of high delay weapons, with stats.. If you start meshing them, its always leans towards one direction way to dam much... This is actually makeing sure that does not come up as best as possible. plus have variety of weapons.
    Plus its stops the mesh that has accurred with things like the new targ shield out .. AKA pure caster stats but an effect that is only well attuned for a melee. Haveing stuff like this kinda does not help alot of people.
  14. ARCHIVED-wajamacallit Guest

    I can see what you has been done in terms of stats for the 2H weapons, the total's of the Attributes and health/power are similar with the edge going to the 3 attribute weapons, 1H do not seem to follow with a larger difference, with the worst being War Club @185 similar weapons are around 240ish, its so far below the others its almost as if it is missing a stat somewhere.
    On the issue of providing an option for every class, style of play, look etc then thats a daunting challenge. In my opinion Mastercraft should offer choice's and be customisable. I would like to go the broker and buy a weapon based on the Look, damage type, delay. Then go to the weapon vendor and purchase an adornment type device that will add the stats I would like for a token ammount (99% of the weapons cost should be paid to the weaponsmith), then go to the local scribe and buy the ***** strike for the damage type I would prefer be it Heat, cold etc again for a token amount.
  15. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
  16. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    Istar@Mistmoore wrote:
    You didn't read the thread at all, did you.
    If you did, you would have seen my post of a list of 55 weapons, with varying stats, delays and damage types. If you had read this thread, you would not have missed it.
    Then, you come in afterwards with some half thought out idea about how it would be cool to add in some arbitary, artificial number to the maximum number of mastercrafted weapons in the game, and then you wonder why people are not particularly enthused about it.
    Read the thread, then post your thoughts.
  17. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    Istar wrote:
    umm, are you not aware that this particular shield is one of the best non raid dropped shields for a tanking crusader?
    Sure, it may not fit in to what your opinion of a shield is, but that doesn't mean it is not a [I cannot control my vocabulary] fine shield for some classes out there...
  18. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    You say you shouldn't base weapons off stats, yet you go on to say "here is a way to base weapons off stats". /boggle

    And I quite notably never said the only weapons in my list that an SK would want or be able to equip would be the STR/INT set.

    The lack of reading comprehension that nearly everyone in this thread is demonstrating is just baffling.
  19. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    Is there really a lack of reading comprehension, or simply the fact that you think everyone is needing to agree with you?
    As to this point in particular, can you honestly tell me that an SK wouldn't like a weapon with STR/INT on it? That this wouldn't, in fact, be the top choice for an SK?
    Did you not say this? Did you not say top choice for an SK is this? I think you did. This to me is saying you already know whats best for an SK, when I distinctly remember saying that is not the case, and stats an SK or any class for that matter may choose will determine what will be thier top choice.
  20. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    Your quoting the wrong person ;)

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