Outfitter weapon types

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Domino, Mar 31, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-Tokamak Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    Yeah Ill bow to that one (ranged crit / da = overpowered) Im a bit of as ranger noob. However Im fine with having specific weapons available to scouts with da / attack mods on them. If you make the raw appropriately difficult to get (and remember that the scout is loosing auto attack dps by using them over raid drops [i hope]) then these effects are little different to adornments imo.
  2. ARCHIVED-BigChiefJJ Guest

    I'm looking at scout usable weapons, so I'm really only looking at the 1H Slash (9) and Piercers (7). I guess the things I'd be interested in would be STR and INT (if I'm in a group) for max damage and STR, STA, INT (if I'm soloing) for a combination of damage with some survivability. I'm taking the line that I'd rather buff my health (STA) rather than avoidance (AGI) if I'm looking for a weapon with three stat categories, since most scout gear already has an abundance of AGI.
    It does look like we have the Kris for a 1H Pierce with 65 / 45 and the Tomahawk for 1H Slash 65 / 35 - would be nice if the tomahawk had the 45 INT that the Kris had though. For the three stat item I guess the closeting thing I would compare it to would be the long sword with 45/ 35/ 35 but I'd swap the AGI for INT - and would be nice to have a piercing one to match it.
    The delay time would be nice to be upped a bit as well so that they are consistent. Not sure if its intended that most of the slashers have much longer delays than the piercers.
    There was a comment earlier along the lines of melee MC weapons should not have any effects on them that would benefit ranged attacks (like RDA, Rcrit or +CA damage) and I'd really like to take exception to this simply because every melee class has the ability to put a +dps adornment on their ranged weapon (and have that +dps apply to their melee attacks) yet Ranged classes have nothing that will benefit their dps from the melee weapons. Weather its in the form of an inherent ability to the weapon itself or the form of a new adornment (legendary quality like the dps adornment is) that would add ranged crit or ranged Double Attack, or even +CA damage, something needs to be included in melee weapons that would benefit a ranger while they are using their bow. If something is designed specifically for Rangers i.e. Ranged DA or Ranged Crit - the ideal stats that need to be placed on that weapons would be STR / INT only - no STA, no AGI as it would be a pure dps increasing weapon. The new adornment like that seems to be a good fit for WS as they have been asking for something useful for a while.
    With the changes currently going into the ranger class of moving their primary damage away from autoattack and toward CA as their major damage - ranged DA and Ranged crit will be no more overpowered than melee DA and melee crit - its just going to be a lot less abundant unless items are redone to compensate.
  3. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    This is why you should ask before you assume. And read so you understand motivations. I've played a paladin since launch, I have a high level wizard, and I play a melee warden, a coercer, and a dirge. I've played a monk as well. Your last two paragraphs tell me you didn't even read my post. When I'm tanking, purely concerned about tanking, I would trade my STR/STA/AGI long sword for a weapon with high STA/AGI in a second. If I can tank in offensive then I would love to switch to a weapon high in STR/INT. I could care less about WIS most of the time. Go ask the WW paladin channel if they want WIS on their weapons at the expense of other stats. Do you think SKs would?

    I spent time talking with melee priests, and they clearly said they'd put STR above all else. They even said they would use a weapon without WIS on it, cause they have plenty of WIS from other gear. I find this true on my warden, as well. I would use a STR/STA weapon on my warden in a heartbeat if it had high STR. Though if there was a high delay/spread 2H with STR/WIS that was priest only I would use that above all else.

    And your thoughts about mages wanting WIS are equally spurious.

    So don't lecture about not knowing mechanics, please.
  4. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    Tokamak wrote:
    As much as I would like to see that, specifically due to the piss poor itemisation rangers have, and always have had,I don't see any way this could work while retaining balance between all classes, and still keeping each item within its place in the whole scheme.
    For those not up to what I am talking about, look at items (legendary/fabled quest rewards and drops, both heroic and epic), and look at the difference between melee and ranged crit and DA. There is a total disparity between the two. Until this situation is fixed so that there is no longer this rather large gap that is going against rangers, I would suggest an area of the game such as mastercrafted weapons simply stay out. Crit and DA numbers are so over the place, and inconsistant that there is no way to put them in to these kinds of items without either upsetting the entire ranger community (again) or making them better than anything else in the game for that class.
    Personally, I'd like to see this whole thing fixed (of all my many many many alts, I do not have a ranger, so this is one change to the game that would in no way effect me). If it were fixed, this is an area of itemisation I think domino should try and jump right in to. Until it is fixed as a whole though, there is no way at all of knowing where mastercrafted weapons will fit, as no one really knows where legendary or fabled items fit.
  5. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    I don't think you understood their post...tbh
    With all do respect, but just because you play toons a certain way, does it mean that is the majority? No. There are several play styles across all 24 class's, depending on the player. Not everyone raids, not everyone groups, not ever solo's. So yes, there will mages that want WIS for higher resists and greater chances at their root not being resisted. There will be a paladin or sk that will go for WIS items to raise their resists as well.
    With 24 class's, 24 class specific AP trees, and 12 sub-class AP trees that give 5 different ways to improve and individualize your toon...that is a lot of variations to weapons. The best way to go is 3 stat weapons with a primary stat that has a higher value than the other two to help signify the weapons use.
    Sure many will say I want this, or I want that...but it by no means it is a majority. The different builds that are available across the 24 class's is enormous, so there comment on mechanics is just as valid as your suggestion. However...one was a bit more bias than the other... ;)
  6. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    I understood his post just fine. He intimated that I am a crafter that doesn't adventure, and said it was obvious that what I proposed was uninformed and insufficient. I beg to differ.

    Proposing a system that quintuples (or more) the weapon count doesn't seem realistic to me. But I left his (original) post alone without disagreeing because I felt it is a valid view point, and it will be Domino that says how far she is willing to go, not me. So please, clarify your last sentence for me, if you would.
  7. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    I got no indication at all that he was suggesting you were uninformed or insufficient. What was being suggested is that this forum may not be the best suited to discuss statistics of weapons, because it is not all about the str or agi increase on the weapon, and more about the delay, damage and damage rating. I agree with that to a certain extent, however feel that it will be better controled in the TS forum rather than Items and Equipment or General game play...
    As for my last sentence...it is self explanatory...
    ;)
  8. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    I've talked specifically about delay/damage spread being of high importance in multiple posts, yet he singled me out and said this is the perfect example of a "crafter who knows nothing about mechanics" yadda yadda. I think you must have skimmed over the posts or something.
  9. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    I read your post...and well...as mind numbing as it was, you had some valid points. However I did not get that he was saying you don't know what your talking about. I think he was suggesting that feedback from players that are not just crafters would be helpful, since a crafting point of view could get skewed on what sells and what doesn't, however may not necessarily be what is best for the many different play styles available.
    Your suggestions also were a bit bias to specific play styles as if they are the only play styles that anyone should be concerned about. You spoke for the majority, and you shouldn't of...
    In short...you took his quote of your post to personally...
  10. ARCHIVED-Tokamak Guest

    Noaani wrote:
    Yeah Im sorry that was an idiot typo on my part, what I really meant was dps / attack speed mods :(

    Agreed now that Im thinking about it a little more, DA / RCrit (and MCrit too I suppose) should really be made more consistent over stuff like VP loot, and then allowed to flow down to MC gear as you would expect in a rational itemisation scheme.
  11. ARCHIVED-sliderhouserules Guest

    Rashaak wrote:
    I've said it clearly in other places that I wanted to spur conversation, that my list may be incomplete and I welcome additions and/or corrections. I've also explained what research I've done to specifically talk to people about the different play styles that are prevalent throughout the game. I don't think every time I post I should repost everything I've ever talked about on the subject. You and anyone else reading this should at least go back and read the previous thread that led to this one.
  12. ARCHIVED-Rashaak Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    Oh I have...hehheh...maybe you should go back and re-read yourself ;)
    Anywho
    your comment here: If you're a bit liberal about what classes can equip what, then this should cover all the bases. I challenge anyone to describe a (major) play style that isn't covered by the above.

    You challenged others, and therefore were challenged...and I disagree completely with how you listed playstyles...
  13. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    DominoDev wrote:
    I do hope they do end up coming into consideration somewhere, however, because they could benefit from the imbue changes you mentioned in the other thread.
  14. ARCHIVED-Lodrelhai Guest

    Agreed that bow consideration would be very good, but for the moment I think sticking with primary weapons is better. After all, when it comes down to it this is about revamping the weaponsmith's supply - woodworkers are here only because we provide a complimentary product. And I know I'd like to see it remain a complimentary product, not turn into a competitive one, so revamping both crafts weapons simultaneously will allow for a recipe distribution that doesn't step on toes.
  15. ARCHIVED-Youngone31 Guest

    I have to agree with the person that said you made this post in the wrong section. Unless a person plays all 24 classes, how can possibly design weapons for all those classes. There was also one person that made comments about this weapon selling and that weapon not selling. That person's information is useless. Making money should not be an issue here. The only thing people should be thinking about is this. Would I use this weapon?
    I can only make comments about the class I am most familiar with. As a fury, I want buffs on my weapon that will help me to do damage in order to kill faster. The Scepter is nice with the wis/int on it but it would be better imho if it had more int than wis, was a lil slower, and and the imbued version proced off of spells and not melee hits.
    It would also be nice to have a 1h weapon that is druid usable has str/int on it for those days I am crazy enough to engage in melee. Also I have to agree that the buffs need to be increased on 2h weapons. There is too great of a lose going from 1h and shield to 2h.
  16. ARCHIVED-Tokamak Guest

    Youngone31 wrote:
    There arent really 24 unique classes for the purposes of this discussion. Also only a brief knowledge of class outlines / divides is required to come up with decent itemisation. Your distinct classes would be:
    Warrior
    Crusader
    Brawler
    Cleric
    Shamen
    Druid
    Mage
    Rogue / Preadator (excepting bows)
    Bard
    Thats 9 classes, if you cant work out a basic requirement of each its probably time to give up.
  17. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    sliderhouserules wrote:
    As Rashaak already said, you challanged the rest of us to come up with a major playstyle to you had not represented in your post, an indication that you thought it was complete. It took me less than 2 seconds to realise you had nothing on there for crusaders, shadowknights in particular, to be overly happy about, and i pointed it out, along with other flaws.
    The combination of such a gross error in your compiling that small list, and assumption that you had everything covered (when, in fact, you had maybe half of the major playstyles represented), lead me straight to the belief that this post is in the wrong section of these forums.
    You can argue the fact all you want, but 1 particular thing will remain the same. You missed out certian major playstyles (an entire class in fact) while basically asking others to pick your list appart, and I pisked up on that instantly.
    Although I do not claim to be all knowing on every class in this game, I have played all but 1 of them to level 50 at least (the one I have not played to 50 is a ranger), and have raided on 13 different classes at end game. I do not know how to play a SK as well as someone that has had one as their main since launch, but I am most certianly aware of what stats that (and any other) class needs, and what benifits they get from them. Unlike you, my post was not based on what I have asked other players about, it was based on first hand knowledge of what I have done in this game.
    The only ommissions I have from my previous list are ones that I consider to be far too obscure to include on a list like this, unless Domino has a much larger database to work with than, or weapons that would actually hurt the player should they make a bad/uninformed decision. A tanking weapon with no str, in my own personal opinion, fits in to one of those 2 catagories, though I am more than aware there would be a few people out there that may want one.
  18. ARCHIVED-Noaani Guest

    Tokamak wrote:
    Although I agree with you again, one has to remember that within each of these classes, there are different needs based on AA spec. An example would be druids. A melee warden wants totally different stats from a caster fury, and both need to be catered for at very least with mastercrafted weapons (they should be catered for throughout itemisation in the whole game, but we had enough of an issue getting healer plate armour). On top of that, you have to cater to peoples wants for both solo and grouping, and within that, are they filling a specific role in a group (tank or healer) or are they there to DPS?
    This is the primary role of mastercrafted weapons in my opinion. It is not at all hard to pick up a single weapon that is better all round for a zerker that sometimes solos, sometimes tanks for groups and sometimes fills a DPS role in groups, but it is a little harder to find a weapon that does each role better than a mastercrafted focused on that specific role (not impossible, just harder than finding an all round weapon).
    To me, this is the only way weaponsmiths are going to get any half respectible sales until the next level increase.
  19. ARCHIVED-Calain80 Guest

    Tokamak wrote:
    There are not only 9 classes:

    Warrior - OK, they are close, but they need at least two sets of gear. One for tanking and one for DPSing.

    Crusader - Paladin needs WIS for Power - SK needs INT for Power so they need different stats.

    Brawler - similar

    Cleric - Templar goes Spells and Needs WIS / INT / STA and maybee some STR - Most Inquisitor go CAs and need WIS / STR / STA and some INT

    Shamen - Most Mystic use CA by now so they also nees WIS / STR / STA and INT, while Defilers are only in need of WIS / STA / INT

    Druid - Mostly right, but what is with the melee Wardens out there even if it aren't that many?

    Mage - Statwise OK, but The boni they are looking for might be totally different. Also the play styles may differ and so then do the needed stats.

    Rogue / Preadator (excepting bows) - Scout Melee DPS. Might be close, but Some might like more STA to survive, and other more STR for max DPS.

    none - Ranger - Is in his own group that you did not list at all. He wears the weapons mostly for the stats. The damage ratio is not as important to him, so he has his own look at items, as it is the only class that would use a weapon with good stats, a low damage rating and no proc over a weapon with mediocre stats, a good damage rating and a additional proc.

    Bard - Dirge is much more melee oriented then Troubadour and so will be their equipment.

    There is more behind the classes then it looks like at first view. At best you don't look at the classes at all while looking for stats but look for roles to fill by a char. One class can also have multiple roles for which the char might even carry multiple sets of gear with him all the time. This is a complex game with many ways to go. So there are no easy answers.

    I think this is also why we all are still playing / loving this game. ;)
  20. ARCHIVED-Youngone31 Guest

    I will agree that classes can be placed into groups but you also have to realize that just because classes may be in the same category does not mean that they one set of stats will be the best for all.
    I can only comment on the classes that I am most familiar with. Wardens and Furys are both druids but they do not play the same way, but the one weapon fits all concept would work with them. If there were 1hs, 1hb, and a 2hb weapons that buffed str/wis/int, it would benefit both classes. Wardens would have str for their ca type abilities and Furys would have int for their nukes.
    So I guess what has to be determined is which classes need which stats and buffs and what design to give each weapon.
    I am just curious to know how the perfect weapon concept would work for the other classes.
    Oh and people need to stop thinking with their money bags. Trying to design a weapon people will use should be first priority. People are quick to tell others what weapon they should use yet that same person given the advice would not use the weapon themselves.