Wow, YOU are the one that obviously has no clue. Warriors outdamaged bards in eq1? That's freaking stupid. People that knew how to twist songs did crazy mega damage and could kite craploads of mobs w/out taking any damage at all. Where the hell are you getting your crappy information?? Ahhhh I see our effectiveness really only comes in when all clerics ina group die off, then we REALLY shine. /roll Save the group when we get multiple adds? With what?? LMFAO I think you maybe thinking about a chanter bro. No song i have, at least at 42 does anything like that. Completely negate the boss?????? Dude, what the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are you talking about? Are you talking about our joke debuffs that take up concentration slots? The ones that basically do absolutely nothing? I have yet to see one parse at 40+_ that shows ANY noticeable difference our buffs do in a fight. Man you need to stop stinking this board up with your homering and admit the dirge class is in the sewer and needs some shower.
Jarr, take a look around this post. How many that have replied agree with your complaint about our DPS? From what I see, everyone is telling you that you are going down the wrong path. Yes we are a member of the scout class who are 2nd in damage dealing to the casters, but we are at the bottom of that scale. The benefit we bring to the group is not only decent DPS, but also the ability to debuff mobs and buff the group. We are the jack of all trades... and the master of none. I think that's the thing that you're having a hard time grasping. I see a number of people trying to tell you that, dirges that probably have just as much experience or more than you... but your response is "Our DPS sucks! It should be better than tanks!" Some tanks yes, some no. On the average the scout class does more damage than the tank. But I'm sure there is plenty of overlap there. Many groups I'm at the top of the damage scale every time. (I am currently level 44) Some times I'm in the middle, but I still don't whine about it. Beacuse not only am I still doing decent DPS, but I'm helping each and every member of the group to increase their DPS by buffing and debuffing. On another note, in order to get the DPS I am able to I am constantly using skills, even backing up a bit to hit with the double-shot bow skill (does 400-500 ish damage at 44, plus heal and minor power regain) Some times I get outdamaged by a Zerker, or another non-monk tank... but not very often. In most cases the only classes that out damage me are Wizards, Warlocks, Monks, and Bruisers... not too shabby in my opinion. Only 4 classes that regularly outdamage me and I do soo much more than DPS. I have a few minor issues with the class, but DPS certianly isn't one of them. What happens if they, for some reason increase our DPS? Then the Monks and Zerkers and Assassins and Rangers cry that we have the same damage output as them and yet can do much more than they can. I have to agree with almost every other response to your post... you are playing the wrong class. We are the least DPS class of the DPS classes and yet still do plenty good in my book. Personally I think our DPS is fine... and apparently most other Dirges do as well.
45 dirge here. I parse often. If I really try I can top the list or come a close second. If I'm handling other things, it's last or close. I'm happy with our dps, especially in longer fights, because so much of our damage is backloaded, and increases as time goes on (debuffs adding up over time, getting in extra lanets, etc). We have no big hits, but we have consistant quick strikes. If a mob drops fast there's no way we'll come close on dps, but that's fine. You forget too that we have a wide array of damage, both ranged and melee, dealing many different damage types. Sure you can't stack all those together for giant dps, but if a mob has certain resists, we're still able to participate in the fight. all this and you make the tank tank better, the group hit harder, and if the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hits the fan you can bard speed back to your dead group, stealth in, rez them, then evac to safety. if you're not happy with you're bard by all means play another class
Wow, YOU are the one that obviously has no clue. Warriors outdamaged bards in eq1? That's freaking stupid. People that knew how to twist songs did crazy mega damage and could kite craploads of mobs w/out taking any damage at all. Where the hell are you getting your crappy information?? Ahhhh I see our effectiveness really only comes in when all clerics ina group die off, then we REALLY shine. /roll Save the group when we get multiple adds? With what?? LMFAO I think you maybe thinking about a chanter bro. No song i have, at least at 42 does anything like that. Completely negate the boss?????? Dude, what the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are you talking about? Are you talking about our joke debuffs that take up concentration slots? The ones that basically do absolutely nothing? I have yet to see one parse at 40+_ that shows ANY noticeable difference our buffs do in a fight. Man you need to stop stinking this board up with your homering and admit the dirge class is in the sewer and needs some shower. You obviously don't know very much about the class. (Or the Bard in EQ1 -- crazy mega damage, yeah right.) It's people like you that actually hurt our cause to get looked at because your reasoning is so unsound.
1) I think he is refering to evac .. think this one saved hundreds and lot more of groups 2) in a situation where it is you and your group against a named and his companions, you are able to chain fear and, if you chose the training at 40, manadrain the boss while your grp takes care of the other mobs. don't tell me this doesn't work, or it is not effective or whatever you like ... did it a few times now, and it worked very well but i don't even know why i am repling to this ... you will not understand this, you will be flaming over and over again ... *sigh* We all agree that we have issues to be fixed .. DPS is on the lower end of this list as far as i'm concerned, i think you chose the wrong class .. maybe you should reroll an assa or a warlock or something like this. And one hint from dirge to dirge Keep your language clean, your arguments backed up and sorted and accept that there are people who do not share your opinion I know that we dirges are overlooked very often, and do not get the attention we may deserve .. but a thread like yours (and espacially the way you chose to explain your thoughts) is going to help none of us ^^ P.S: (Excuse my english .. i know .. not that good at all *sigh*)
hmm, last i heard wizards also get evac, and clerics get res. Our debuffs suck, and we can't tank or deal damage. Yet somehow we are a L33t class? Tell me again what our class offers that others cannot. Also, no one has been able to offer an explanation on how tanks can out dps us.
We have the best ingame res of all classes. We offer nothing else any other class doesn't have. However, we are the only class offering all this skills at once.
Jarrettes, I just gotta point this out and I know you'll probably overreact. But, at this point, you've gotten so ludicrous and illogical rebuttels and are so obviously outnumbered in opinion that it is like watching a sit com. I tune in everyday to read how your going to make me laugh. Seriously thought if you took some time to state you arguements with more logical statements and less personal insults and attacks I think people would take your opinions more seriously. Right now you're making a joke of yourself.
"hmm, last i heard wizards also get evac, and clerics get res. Our debuffs suck, and we can't tank or deal damage. Yet somehow we are a L33t class? Tell me again what our class offers that others cannot. Also, no one has been able to offer an explanation on how tanks can out dps us." Jarettes: you're looking at the game in a very one-dimensional black and white view. You seem to think that the entirety of class balance is a ratio between tanking ability and damage output. Which, as an aside, I think bards are the best tanking non fighter class. Or at least have the potential to be if played/equipped right, and especially if grouping with a shaman. We probably shouldn't outdamage fighters, at least not by much. Dirges are a subtle class. Most melee types get at least 1 really big hitting attack, we really dont (lanets is the exception, but because of how it works it has less of an impact on overall dps). So while watching dps, what this means is most classes jump to super high dps right away, and then it drops over the course of the fight. Dirges are the opposite, we start out small and steadily increase over the course of the fight. This is because of three reasons: one, The buffs/debuffs add up over time and over the course of a long fight it accounts for a much large percentage of the overall group dps than it would in a short fight. Second, most of our melee attacks have debuffs associated with them, causing a lot of our other attacks to hit harder. In order to see a dps benfit from these we need to wait about 20-25 seconds, which is the lifespawn of a short fight. Third, things like lanets and afflicted blade do a lot of damage, but simply just need time to go off. Using these if they dont have enough time to go through will cut your dps a lot because of the time you wasted casting em. all that said, it's all a number, we do consistant dps, it really all depends on the fight. fighters can beat us sometimes. that's fine. since we have no big attacks to focus on, upgrade em all to at least adept III. you really only get an extra ~3-4dps from each upgrade, but we have a lot of attacks so it adds up. Plus the debuff/heal parts add up. I did this plus masters and i'm pleased with my damage. On top of this, our rez is the best battle rez in the game. People can stand up, and instantly rejoin the fight. we mobilize groups. we can evac a sticky situation. We're the best CR runners in the game. we can keep one thing permanently mezzed. we can pull aggro off anyone. we make the tanks tank better and the dps hit harder. priests dont need to waste power on us cause we can lifetap health back (jaels dreadful + bereavement + cry + imbued armor = 4 ways to heal yourself). we can drain power, stealth, and track. And we're great kiters. Any other classes have a rap sheet like that? So what a tank can tank much better than me, and sometimes outdamage me. If you play your dirge right, people will notice when you're not around.
Background: I'm a 45 Dirge with all Adept Is and a couple of Adept IIIs, I have average gear for a Scout, and I use SSoY/SBD. I always have /log turned on and I look at my parses every day. Dirges are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to DPS (we only beat Enchanters and Priests), we only have two buffs that are really worth having us around (Jonthan's/Harl's and Discordant Boon) and only one debuff that works great until you start fighting MOBs that are 47+ (Clara's). Add in the fact that when grouped with another Dirge your DPS will drop by 30%, and you have a character that will be relatively useless. Sure, I'll still play my Dirge because I enjoy the style. Even though I know that I don't help as much as almost every other class. The problem here is balance. This is a game, not a lifestyle. There should be pros and cons to every class that make them as close to equal to every other class as possible. Personally, I'd prefer it if our debuffs were actually worth using. Make slows more than a novelty, make Clara's scale up with levels, make our MR debuffs noticeable, etc... I didn't create my Dirge so I could help people with their JBoots runs, evac my group, or have an in-combat rez. I created my Dirge so I could deal out damage and help other classes deal more damage. My two cents.
Wow for someone scolding someone about using personal insults, you sure employ a lot of personal insults. Nice constructive post. Nice gloves btw.
Exactly, dirges are a crap class as it stands. We need so much help it's sad. Our debuffs do nothing, we do no damage, we can't tank, and our buffs are crap. We shouldnt even HAVE an in-game res! It doesn't make any sense! We aren't a healing class or a resing class. That isn't our responsibility. You know, a lot of you are so hardset on the one line description of our class SoE release before the game even came out, then how do you explain an in-game res? Dirges ARE supposed to deal a good amount of damage AND debuff well. Anyone who disagrees with that, please show me where you are getting your information.
I dont disagree with the rez skill. We get the ablity to rez much teh same way a necor gets the ablity to rez. We deal with the dead.. And bards have always been a psuedo magic Hybrid class. In D&D and most game systems bards can cast actal mage spells whiel nto as good as a mage they can cast some of the basics. A dirge who speclizes in death and so on not surpising he picks up a few necormancy arts here and there. Also game design wise. They designed rez not to be an archtype restrited ablity. They wanted all Priest types to be able to rez and 1 class of each other archtype able to. (Paladin, Dirge, and Necro) Just like certian other classes can Evac like scouts can.
What makes you a "Troll" is your abrasive manner in all your posts andyour obvious attempt to inflame others in your responses When they do respond, you in no uncertain terms tell them that because they don't agree with you they have no idea what they are talking about. If you changed your tone in your posts you would probably get a much more positive response. It should tell you something that 95% (would have been higher until somehow, someone actually agreed with you) of the poeple that have posted here are telling you maybe you should be looking for another class with the emphasis on DPS that you are looking for. Every class has it specific role. You say no tank should out damage a scout. Well Monks and Bruisers are tanks and I have seen them outdamage scouts on a regular basis. Oh wait....here it comes now "Monks and Bruisers aren't tanks!!!!" Hmmm they are in the fighter tree....but they are a differnt style of tank, one that places more emphasis on DPS and avoidance rather then the Tank norm of protection and absorbing hits with massive HPs and Mitigation. Ever think that maybe Bards are like that for the Scout tree? With more emphasis on group abilities and utility rather than that of a normal scout who's emphasis is on personal DPS? This is EQ2, not EQ: with better graphics. It is vastly different in terms of class balancing and abilities and they way those classes are used. I'm definatly not saying Dirges are fine the way they are. I think with the new changes that bards overall need some tweaking with their abilities being impacted as heavily as they were. Quite a few of our songs are broken and do not work as advertised and should be fixed. As far as DPS goes though I think we are fine. Would I mind a boost? Hell no, who would? Is it absolutely needed or a major issue on the class, no. To be honest with you I really don't think you will be happy in this class and you should think about looking into a Predator of Rogue branch class.
Don't care. All I care about is SoE taking note that our dps isn't where it's supposed to be. I don't care what percentage of people agree with me or who "likes" me. I'm not looking for an emphasis on dps. I'm looking for more dps than a tank has. This is the order I think dps should go in... 1. wizard 2. Warlock 3. Assassin 4. swashbuckler 5. ranger classes 6. enchanter classes 7. bard classes 8. tank classes 9. healing classes Yes, I know that in EQ2 monks and bruisers are tanks. Therefore, they should do less damage than scouts. Their ability to tank should hurt there ability to do damage. it's a tradeoff. Just like being a sk costs you tanking ability because of your utility spells, and they can still out tank all scouts - being a dirge costs you dps because of your utility spells, but we should still be able to outdamage a tank. Just like you said this is EQ2 not EQ1, scouts are all VERY similar to each other, unlike eq1 where they were barely equatable. I like the dirge class, I really do, we just need more dps among other things above mentioned.
Tanking is the ability to - Make things hit you and no one else, and the ability to not die quickly while doing this. Healing is the ability to - make tanking people not die over time from damage accumuation DPS is the ability to - Make the targets die Support is the ability to - make the other 3 abilities possible, safer, better, longer, or faster There are 6 slots in a group. To earn one of those 6 slots, your class must be one of the top three in one ability, or the top six in two abilities at the same time. Also, you cannot be in the top six by default... IE, having a trivial ability will not qualify just because no one else has even that much. 1 being the best and 24 being a fool for trying, Postbardtank nerf the dirge is a solid 8 for Tanking. We can get the aggro, and hold it, we just cannot survive it. 1-6 fighters, 7 templar, 8 dirge for virtue of lifetaps. Dirges are a solid 12th on healing, by virtue of lifetaps as a self heal. 1-6 priests, 7-8 crusaders, 9-10 brawlers (mend), 11 troubador (HP regen song), 12 dirge. It should be noted that none of the remaining 12 have any form of healing. DPS wise, dirges are a heavily contested 15th. The contest is between several priests, occasional enchanters, and both bards... behind fighters, other scouts, and other mages. Support wise, the dirge heads into a muddy field with no way to keep clean. For most of our lives, we live in the top 3 and the sun is warm and golden. Sadly, at 50 (the only level that matters once you get to 50), your skills have not scaled as well as have others. Enchanters hold the top honors, but most classes (not all) have extremely useful group buffs, and players commonly have gear which closely mimic (where they are not superior to) all that a dirge can do. This deflates the dirge's standing into the double digits. Then you raid tough epic encounters and jumble into competition for the 24th slot in all 4 abilities at the same time. Some Dirges become delusional, others quit. A heartwarming few launch into stories where they were the king of the reject pile, in a group with a shadowknight, 3 necros, and a fury.
The only fighter class Id expect us to outdamage is a guardian because they should be so specialized at taking damage & holding agro they'd be overpowered if they did a lot of damage. If we are doing what we're supposed to be doing, buffing, debuffing & dps, & we're still not viable in group/raid combat situations its our buffs & debuffs that should be tweaked, not our dps. We're a utility class, not a dps class.
ahhh, i see so now there are special classes called "utility" classes that are not supposed to have any dps, because they can perform worthless parlor tricks. Ok so since we have absolutely worthless buffs and worthless debuffs that do NOTHING, we shouldn't be able to offer ANY damage to a group... What exactly in our arsenal, quipo, do think is so INVALUABLE that it should take away our dps? evac? the highest dps char in the game gets that. So it can't be evac....hmmm.... our run speed out of combat? hmm, well a horse could cured that.... Our debuffs that do absolutely nothing or close to it? nah, those are worthless. At what point is a class deemed a "utility" class? Is it after x amount of debuffs/buffs are received? Is a shadowknight a "utility" class? Scouts are supposed to do more damage than a tank. We should be the lowest dps scout, but still more dps than someone that solos freaking group mobs.
1) When I say utility I think you know exactly what I mean. 2) I answered your questions in my second sentence.
Scouts are supposed to do more damage than a tank. We should be the lowest dps scout, but still more dps than someone that solos freaking group mobs. I solo freaking group mobs. I guess I should do more damage than myself. *snicker*
