New proc adjustment and zerker taunts...

If one good thing comes of this... FIX OUR FREAKING OFF STANCE! Limiting the number of targets it can proc on is freaking ridiculous.

CLARIFICATIONS:

FRENZY is the only ability that is affected. It is a triple attack and could potentially trigger other procs three times.

What they are correcting is that Brawlers and Rangers (mostly Rangers) would proc like crazy off of multiattack abilities that they could spam and take less than a second to cast each. A Ranger's Triple Shot could sometimes proc a weapon three times PLUS poison procs three times PLUS a proc buff three times all within the split second it takes to cast the CA, Triple Shot. Brawlers have CAs that let them hit well over three times with a single CA.

ONE CA Attack will only cause ONE Proc. ie: Frenzy, which technically hits three times, cannot cause three procs. Rampage will only proc off of Frenzy ONCE, not three times.

Considering Rampage will only proc 10 times and is easily spent before the duration, this is not an issue.

but back to my original question...
one of the main ways that i keep aggro with a multi group encounter, is i fire off rampage just before my pull, i aoe taunt, then i assult and stunning howl.
the assault hits all the targets and rampage procs on all the targets as well, the stunning howl hits, and the remainder of rampage hits apply to all targets.
This allows me to build up a good amount of hate on all enemies.
by my understanding now, i fire rampage, i do assualt, and rampage will fire on only ONE mob. i fire off stunning howl, and rampage fires off only on ONE MOB again.
or am i missing something?

-Erick

I think alot of us might be reading more into this than is there. This was meant as a fix to imbued weapons. I have a Ranger/Swashy and Zerker so can relate to what was happening proc wise. Basically if you were to equip slow delay weapons (say imbued leafblades) and then fire a multi-attack combat art not only were you getting a chance to proc off any buffs and/or combat arts you had active but were also getting the weapon proc chance.
Basically if a CA has 3 attacks on a single fire you were able to hit 3 times from the CA art plus other procs... i.e something liek this

Hit 1 (200 damage) + offensive proc (120 damage) + buff proc (+100 damage) + poison proc (120 damage) + weapon proc (75 damage) = 615 total damage on Hit 1
Hit 2 (200 damage) + offensive proc (120 damage) + buff proc (+100 damage) + poison proc (120 damage) + weapon proc (75 damage) = 615 total damage on Hit 2
Hit 3 (200 damage) + offensive proc (120 damage) + buff proc (+100 damage) + poison proc (120 damage) + weapon proc (75 damage) = 615 total damage on Hit 3

Total Damage off a single 3 hit CA= 1845

Obviously these damage amounts start to skyrocket as you level. I think this is the fix they are intending to make. While it may affect us some it will hit scout types much harder since poison procs seem to also be affected. For alot of us this fix does not come as a surprise. This is the reason I always went with the lowest delay weapons and not high ones like leafblades.

Assault is not a multi-attack ability, it is an area of effect attack. It is ONE CA that does ONE attack that is able to hit multiple mobs within an area.

Frenzy is a multi-attack ability, it is ONE CA that does THREE attacks that can hit only one mob.

Even if for some reason, Assault was affected, Rampage would still proc on the encounter just like it should, but only once for the entire hit.

Before the change:
Rampage + Frenzy = 3 hits from Frenzy plus 3 procs from Rampage

After the change:
Rampage + Frenzy = 3 hits from Frenzy plus 1 proc from Rampage

In both cases:
1 proc from Rampage = Encounter-wide damage (all mobs in encounter get hit)

As the previous poster noted... people are reading TOO much into the description. Nowhere was it stated that encounter-wide procs will be limited to one mob aside from the supposition by the original poster of course.

Yes that is true the way they are changing the way procs work period its only going to effect Frenzy for us. It really doesnt matter ethier way because even if we use Frenzy now while using Rampage + Open Wounds + Offensive Stance, we still only proced a max of 10 times, so yeah nothing really changes, just takes us longer to proc all 10.
Now the problem is the change there making too slow delay weapons, there changing it so that all weapons do not use the old delay calculation of the weapon which is ie: ( weapon delay / 3 ) * chance to proc, which for example using a RGF with Unbridled Fury is:

• 3.8 / 3 * 10 = 12.6% chance to proc Furious Assault.

Now the reason they did this was to balance it out so that fast weps and slow weps all proced the same amount of times over any given amount of time. Now they are changing it so it uses a flat percent chance for all types of weapons instead of using the old delay proc calculator, my question is this, are they going to some how let slow weapons proc the same amount of times over any given amount of time as a fast weapon will now seeing that its a flat percent rate its working off, the faster weapons will now proc more often then the slow weapons, lets look at this for a example :
Before LU20 :

• 2.1 / 3 * 10 = 7% chance to proc Furious Assault.
• 3.8 / 3 * 10 = 12.6% chance to proc Furious Assault.

After LU20 :

• 2.1 = 10% chance to proc Furious Assault.
• 3.8 = 10% chance to proc Furious Assault.

Lets get a little more elaborate.
Before LU20 :

• 1.2 / 3 * 10 = 4% chance to proc Furious Assault.
• 1.8 / 3 * 10 = 6% chance to proc Furious Assault.

After LU20 :

• 1.2 = 10% chance to proc Furious Assault.
• 1.8 = 10% chance to proc Furious Assault.

Now i dont know about you guys, but the Faster the weapon the better now, not that it really matters seeing as not one single weapon exsists in Tier 6 that has a delay over 3 seconds, but none the less for those who get a nice Tier 4 or 5 weapon, this will be a nerf.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 02-17-200607:34 PM

Big Deal, So they took one of my favorite things to do away. I was kinda pissed too, but we need to remember that critical hits will be in game along with double attack. So what we lose in procs we gain in other skills. So instead of hitting 1 button for burst damage we have to button smash 2 other 1 second cast hits. We will be fine. Like Taemek Said, its because of rangers and monks. they are the ones that are going to be pisseed and kept up all night about this. Just means we can kill them easier in duels 8P. our moves still do alot of damage and i have a feeling slaughter might not be effected by this change. though its a 1 combat art cast but hits everything around you. we will just have to wait and see.

Miller 60 Berserker
Najena
Ancient Vengence

I'm pretty confused about this change as well. Would Frenzy really be effected? It is 3 separate melee attacks, and with the 3 second normalization I don't think you would see multiple procs off of it (unless it changes as Taemak states). The way I originally interpretted it was a fix to Open Wounds and the like when using imbued weapons. I've noticed a single weapon proc hit more than one mob when using Open Wounds. Run into a crowd of mobs, fire up Open Wounds and *wham*, Gleaming Strike blasts 5 mobs at the same time.

Message Edited by Erick_Stormfury on 02-17-200606:52 AM

I may have misunderstood the changes.
What I believe to be true:
1. Any procs you have as buffs or imbued on your weapon will only have a chance to proc from the first hit in a multi-hit CA.
2. Any procs you have as buffs or imbued on your weapon will use the CA delay to calculate chance to proc instead of weapon delay.
Your auto attack will still proc based off weapon delay. You won't have a better chance to proc while using CAs by equiping a slower weapon.

Thats a dramatic over simpflication of what happens... and it doesnt happen like that all the time.

The real problem here is how procs are calculated. Its based of weapon speed and the rangers happen to be the only class who rely on a 7.0 speed weapon to do their DPS. A ranger in melee procs no more or no less than any other class using melee weapons. We are forced to use a 7.0 speed bow, and use poisons and our offensive proc. Procs are "normalised" for a .30 speed weapon. So in effect the 7.0 of our bow gives us over twice as much chance to proc as someone using a 3.0 speed weapon, and up to 3 or more times someone using say a 1.2 speed weapon (actually its 5.8 times)

for instance - if its 5% for a proc to go off on our bow, its actually 7/3 * 5% = 11.6% for our bow to proc. Our poisons are usually 10%, so with our 7.0 bow its 23%, and our offensive proc is 30% which turns out to be a massive 70% proc rate. Clearly over powered considering you let loose triple shot and each shot has a 11.6% chance to proc gleaming strike, a 23% chance to proc a poison and a 70% chance to proc our offensive stance.

i dont think you will find many rangers who would disagree this is unfair and needs to be addressed.

under the new changes however, on a triple shot you will have 1 chance to proc on the first hit. So we lose 2 lots of 11.6 / 23 and 70 right up.. but lets ignore that becuase thats a fair change.. no reason a 3 hit CA should have a chance to hit 3 times. Lets look at the change to using CA cast times instead of weapon speed. Now our casting time is 1.5 for triple shot i think, so its like using a 1.5 melee weapon. Our gleaming strike is now a 2.5% chance.. our poisons are 5% and out offensive stance is 15% .. lets compare those numbers 11.6 vs 2.5 - 78% reduction ..... 23 vs 5 - 78% reduction and 70 vs 15 - 78% reduction..

so when you distill it down.. basically the difference between the casting time of the CA, and the bow weapon speed (7.0) is the reduction in DPS that rangers will see... its significant.. and this is not including the procs of multiple attacks. Rangers have pretty much had their DPs reduced about 60-80% ... we dont do 60-80% more DPS across the board than the other T1 classes.

The bottom line is the weapon speed is the problem and how procs are calculated... thats what needs to be looked at, and not by slashing it by 78%

In any case, this change will mean less procs overall and less procs = less damage AND less hate.

Just as long as they don't nerf Insolent Gibe. Maybe it this change goes into effect they drop our recast timer on that down to say 30 secs or 1 min.

I think the main problem with this change is that they are making it so procs in general will no longer have any chance to be triggered by other procs. So in that case the proc from imbued weapons will no longer be triggerd by Taunting Defense and such.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what it sounds like to me.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-17-200612:50 PM

Um... Rampage stopped proccing off itself several updates ago, I'm thinking that your perceived problem has nothing to do with the upcoming changes. It does proc off of hits from Open Wounds or the offensive stance proc, but not itself. Considering that those are not multi-attack CAs, they shouldn't be affected.
Another question arises however... you relate Rampage to the ability to hold aggro.. what do you do during the 3 minute recycle time? I'm guessing you don't just stand around waiting for it to recast so, what do you do to maintain aggro on those in between encounters? I'm guessing that will still work too.
You can achieve the same effect by buffing with Rampage and opening with either the encounter-wide stun or an AoE attack. Each hit will still cause a proc from Rampage.

The same applies to the aggro magnet scouts, with our reduced aggro generation comes scouts producing less aggro. The big difference is that scouts will have a larger decrease compared to ours so in effect, it makes us MORE capable of holding aggro over them.

^ True, but what about mages that are not having their DPS reduced at all from this change? We will have an even harder time holding aggro from them than we do right now, correct?

That may or maynot be true based on game mechanics. Its still on test so we dont know all the details involved. But its clear in numerous posts that the powers that be want "AGRO managment" to be a team effort. Everyone is going to have to adjust from these changes. If that means casters changing their casting habits to allow for more agro oppertunities for the tanks then thats the way it has to be. If they cant figure that out then you can use their robe to clean up the wet spot on the dungeon floor.

"But its clear in numerous posts that the powers that be want "AGRO managment" to be a team effort. Everyone is going to have to adjust from these changes. If that means casters changing their casting habits to allow for more agro oppertunities for the tanks then thats the way it has to be."

But they already had to do that after LU13 when they made taunts resistable. Now they are going to nerf our aggro generating abilities even further without touching mage DPS at all.

Yep. they sure are. Because they didnt correct the issue with LU13 or any of the other 6 since. We are all going to have to deal with a new NEW combat system once again. Easy way to make a game last 5 years dontcha think /sarcasm off