New Expansion to bring Sub-class specific abilities. Guardian and Berserker AA's will Split

Was just reading this E3 preview.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2874&Itemid=2

These are across the board additions though, which means new tweaking – the Achievement system now has sub-class abilities for additional customization
This appears to me to mean that Guardians will gain AA abilities that only they will have, and Berserkers will gain AA abilities only we will have. Now to me, comparing to our marquee lvl65 spells, I can only speculate what this will mean for the different class roles. I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive.


Of this, there is no doubt.

hey bro,
Whats up its Excedren, nice too see you still around

Exidius
Befallen's
Mofo

Hey man, I'm hanging on by a thread, lol. Still doing the crafting thing, but been playing a little Eve Online lately as I'm bored with adventuring.

yea our AAs will probably end up offensive, which is really nice

Now who out of the Guardian wannabes around here wants to eat his hat first? Warned you guys this would happen, but nooooo, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would i know huh?
I can only welcome a change like this with open arms because quite honestly, im really sick of getting generic abilitys that another class can use or uses.
My thought on this is, i only hope they make it worth tha spilt for us if we are to take on a more Offensive / DPS orientated role, cause if i become seriously gimped and somewhat a middle man were i cant tank no more or DPS like a Brawler, lets just say that by the time that expasion comes out, there will be a few other games around that are sparking alot of intrest.
Ill be honest, this expasion will make or break this game for me, so i hope Sony do something right here.

Interesting, when I read it I didn't come to that conclusion at all. I thought they were indicating that within say the Wisdom line you will get further choices to refine the skill, but that it would be individual choice in that you could choose your specialty.
This would make sense given the focus on the existing system where they say that it allows players to specialise and therefore individualise their characters, but if you force all the zerkers to choose one type and all the guardians to choose another then that would detract from the whole individualisation concept.
Of course I could be way off track here, it has been known to happen :smileywink:
Either way, I am looking forward to it - I enjoy the idea of individualising my characters to suit my play style.

the Achievement system now has sub-class abilities for additional customization
This part here sort of spells it out. By the way, what you said about individualise has already happened, Guardians do nothing but go down the STA / AGI paths. Some zerkers seem to think this is the best choice also, i think otherwise though.

I do see your point and agree it could go that way possibly. What made me think it would be different is right now I would break down this game --> Archetype(Fighter) --> Class(Warrior) --> Subclass(Berserker/Guardian) and since warriors have the same AA skills, I instantly got the idea that subclass refers to what I shown, instead of AA Line. I still think it's a stretch to interpret subclass referring to AA lines unique abilities, this would really just be adding more abilities to the AA line right?

Anyways, it's to early for me to say told ya so to all the berserkers who constantly try to say our class is destined to be the premier raid tank, when majority of the population off many initial impressions would say guardians would fill that role. This game generalizes to much, and I think SOE is beginning to realize that EQ2's failure as a game is it's lack of uniqueness when it comes to virtually every aspect of the game. Evidenced by the 1-20 archtype change, the addition of sub-class specific gear, etc. It was only time for them to take it one step further. To put each subclass into it's own designated slot for raids and adventuring.

I think this is a good and interesting change. I also think that the subclass achievement system probably won't be anywhere near as powerful or as shaping as the normal achievement system. I say that because SOE is very keen on keeping subclasses in parallel, very often having mirror lines that achieve similar effects with different methods. The class achievement system was the first time that major differentiations were offered, and in many ways they've radically changed the game, encounters were made much tougher in KOS, and many characters gained very significant boosts to their abilities, but while the bonuses are nice, they are still comparable in overall benefits due to how parallel the trees are. (Stat -> Combat Art -> Offensive Bonus -> Defensive Bonus -> Ultimate.) So someone who chose to go down STR can be directly compared to someone who went down WIS, both in improvements to offense and improvements to tanking. But even beyond that since both members of a class are able to access these bonuses their subclasses can remain relatively balanced on the premise of lines being similar, and both subclasses having access to them all.

I would expect the subclass achievement lines to work on improving specific skills/combat arts inherent in a class more than offering differentiated passive bonuses. I say that because recently we have seen the introduction of items with "focus" abilities, that lay the groundwork for specific combat art modification. I also hope that the subclass achievement system isn't simply more tiers tacked onto the bottom of the existing achievement tree, I would like to see it as its own system that allows you to build from scratch within it. If they do add lots of new abilities, and passives I expect them to come with more and more restrictions and tradeoffs, many of them likely very high-cost. Some people may eventually see the half-naked leather armor loincloth berserker who does DPS like a scout they've always wanted and others may see the wall of spiked steel that grinds forward and slowly crushes everything in its path that they've always wanted.

It'll be really interesting, I've always been a fan of horizontal and specialized progression, so I really like they're heading with this.

Up until now yes they have tried to keep everything in line and balanced between two sub-classes which i hate to be quite honest. Everyone is generic. The introduction of Sub-class only abilitys will change all this and rightfully so as we all should be unquie in one way or another. I wouldnt go as far as to say that KoS has been much harder, they have just created a well thought out Expasion with mobs that acually pose a challenge now.

Exactally, and thats what i would like to see, trade offs so extreme you will see a half naked lioncloth wearing Dual axe weilding mad man foaming at the mouth coming at you like there is no tomorrow.
I dont expect subclass achievement lines to work on improving specific skills/combat arts inherent to a class, i expect the new armor sets that will come with certain bonuses to do that, like they have already shown us with the relic armor, relic armor is but a mild taste of what set bonses will apply once they do come through with it.
Lets use this as a example of how they could potentially bring set bonses to the game, lets look at Relic and use this as a example, we have a effect on the BP and Legs, now if you wear the full set, it could another 100hp, 100 power and 100 to mitigation, just a example, but at the same time, you could potentially get a set bonsus that will help DPS for chain wearers, lets say for example 100 HP, 100 Power +70 atk rating 3% chance to crit, so whats the trade off for a Berserker? Plate for tanking, Chain for DPSing. The possibilitys are endless and so are combinations, for some classes anyway.

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 05-04-2006 11:52 PM

Before KoS you said that guardians will get better relic better armor and better achievments and both was wrong.
Nobody knows what ideas SOE has, maybe Guardians will only be given the possibilities to do more damage (like Inqui/Templars-aa, which is almost only for increasend offense) and Beserkers can decide if they want to do more damage and play like a monk (in groups almost only dd and only tank if the 1st tank dies, the way people who like juggernaut want it) and tanking zerkers will get (as compensation because juggernaut sucks so terribly) possibilities to focus more on defense.
Who knows, time will tell.

Huh? Please do go back through my 2k+ posts and quote me where i said that, i mean i had no clue Relic even exsisted until people started discovering it and linking it in the Berserker world wide channel, so id love to know where i said this.
Off the top of my head, i believe i said that Guardians will become the more effcient tank over us and that KoS will be the beginning of it all with the Achievement Ability introduction, i never said it will all happen with KoS. :smileywink: I also went onto say that we would be able to go a more Offensive path, which proved true with the AA paths we already get now. If you think for a second that they will compensate us with something for Juggernaut being a as you call it "terrible" skill, you must be dreaming.
Going to be alot of sorry Zerkers when the Sub-Class abilitys come out, i can feel it now. What entriges me most of all is, the combination of Set Bonus armor + Achievement Abilitys, just imagine the possibilitys that lie here, EQlive didnt even go as far as to introduce Armor Set bonuses, cant wait to see what eventuates from this and may stop me from moving to Vanguard as soon as i thought i would.

No1: (from juggernaut thread)
"wait until some of you see our Relic armor, im going to laugh so hard when you Zerker wannabe Guardians come here crying on the boards about it lol, cant wait for that show."
No2 (from Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids)
"At the end of the day, the Achievement System is coming and id be willing to beat large amounts of coin that we get two paths to chose from:

1. More Defenisve
2. More Offensive

Also, no i dont believe we will contuine on the straight and narrow of being a very compareable tank to a Guardian, seeing they are going to be hands down a even better tank even again when it comes to the Achievement System because they are already a pure Defensive tanks with basically no offensive ability what so ever.
Sure your going to see us still tanking, but we are going to move back a spot even more, BUT thats upto the player on where he wants to take his Berserker. Your going to see abilitys that define us more to the Berserker side of things instead of a Tank / Mediocre DPS. Where a Pallie / Guard on the other hand will begin to shine when adding there new found abilitys from the achievement system.
People who think otherwise are delusional and just hoping that this isnt whats going to happen, but to be honest im ready for a path to chose and ill probally go a Defensive path with a hint of DPS in there too, maybe, all depends on what i can chose.
But i will say this, Guardians and Paladins are going to become better tanks if they follow a Defensive line then we will be able to become even if we follow a defensive line, simply because it doesnt matter how much ability we put into a Defensive line, we will still be a Berserker, a war machine.
I have a funny feeling alot of Berserkers are going to be seriously upset when it comes to the Achievement System choices we get compared to other classes, and no you cant use the Arch Type system as your sole reason to balance anymore because there wont be no arch type system ethier."

One thing to note before i begin, notice everything i said here was before we even knew anything about the Achievement System, when i posted this we didnt even know what were in store to get, with that being said lets move on.
Exactally what i said though, and a nice quote im glad you used this one, notice there is no mention of me saying there that it will all happen at the exact time KoS is launched, ill go one better and bet you all my money in my pocket as we speak, that i also stated back then before knowing anything about the Achievement System that i said the difference will get even bigger when they start to add more class defining abilitys in, just like they did in EQ1 my friend where the first lot of AA was generic, just like it is here right now, but generic between two classes instead of 24, ill go one even further and bet you that the Sub Class achievement abilitys will be on a seperate Tab next to the Acheivement System Tab that is going to make our classes even more stand alone and no more of this Guardians riding our backs and we ride theirs.
Have you noticed all the adjustments to DPS lately Bremer? What makes you think that we arent in line, cause ill stand here and tell you right here right now that i can out damage a Ranger reguardless of wether im tanking or not, i can even keep up with certain Scouts ( Brigands / Swashies ) on terms of DPS wether or not its 1 target or 5 targets ( 5 targets im obviously beating every class alive ), wether tanking or not, we are overpowered once again and i expect changes to come. Hell i can out damage any Bard class at the moment with just Auto Attack running.
Also note the section where you took the Relic armor quote, that had nothing to do with us being any worse then Guardians, it was all to do with the effects that were on the armor, your point it totally MOOT.
We are going to become more Offensive OR we might alos get a choice again to go ethier way, but in the end it makes no difference, Guardians will always be the better tank, i dont care how people try to play the violin.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 05-05-2006 09:56 PM

And in our next episode, Taemek explains us why we'll never need more than 640 KB of Ram.

Message Edited by Lechacal on 05-05-2006 06:25 AM

Is it even possible to get 640 KB of ram?
Anyways, im not always right but im not always wrong ethier, we will see what happens, but i can bet its something along the lines of what im talking about, up until this point, Sony has been pretty clear on what there intentions are, and you can almost read it like a book, especially since LU13.

Dont take what im saying out of context, i never said or implied that KoS would be end all for us, i said it would be the beginning of a change or more or less a choice, a choice with large negative side effects envolved with them ie: Reduce Mitigation for DPS or visa versa. Juggernaut already proves that for us, it may have not been a Achievement Ability but its a CA none the less and does exactally that, reduces out tankability for DPS.
Guardians might get a few new Achievement Abilitys that gives them a edge in groups or raiding but it will be revovled around tanking i can assure you, but for us it will be more or less around Offense, seeing we are the Offensive tank.

What i want is for Sony to get this class right and keep it that way, im tired of them juggling us around, atm we have very high DPS for the strong ability to tank, if Sony want to make us a DPS class, do so, if they want to make us a Tank, do so, i dont care ethier way cause im ethier going to like it or not which ever they decide to do, in the end ill just do what ive done since they began nerfing us way back when they first nerfed Blood Rage, keep my head up and chin out and charge on itno it and make the best of it.
You sound like your the one worried about being nerfed here, maybe you know what i speak of when it comes to us being a overpowered class atm? Why do i bring it up here on the forums? Cause im tired of waiting to be nerfed, id rather them just get it over and done with, its going to eventually happen, 1 week, 2 weeks, 2 months, 6 months, it will happen, it may even happen when the new sub class achievement abilities come out and we have a choice, but what is the choice going to be? Reduce tankability for DPS or reduce DPS for Tankability. I already know what most of your answers would be if it comes down t o this because most of your raid leaders or guild leaders are too one sided or blind too see what else a Berserker has to offer to a raid / group that you are all stuck in this frame of mind that we cant do nothing but tank with a slight advantage in DPS.

Huh? Where did i hope this? Assuming things arent we? I had seen a full set of Guardian Relic armor before i had even seen Berserker Relic armor because a few guilds on our server was farming it before they shut the zone down, so i knew exactally what they were in store for and i had a similar feeling of what we were in store for, once i had seen our Berserker Relic armor we had people parading around like the Armor having some beneficial effect to help us tank better ( besides the significant increase in mitigation ), my point in the post was the effects didnt help us tank at all, all they did was increase the DPS output we could do, seeing when you look at it from a raid tank point of view, Demolish cant stun epics, so all its good for is DPS, from a group point of viw, alot of stuff in KoS is immune to Stun, again, only useful for DPS.
Again, point is moot, has no bearing on your orginal argument you tried to create.

No that isnt what im trying to say at all, again taking what im im trying to say way out of context or just misunderstanding what im trying to say.
It all depends how we gain it and if we get nerfed inbetween now and the expasion, which is a possibility. The nerf might not come in the form off a nerf but in the form of sacraficining ALOT of one thing for a good chunk of another, just because people say nerf, doesnt mean there going to flat out nerf us, there is many ways for MMO companys to perform a nerf. At the moment we have the best of both worlds, and are a very very verastile class. We have great DPS buffs for DPS group set up in raids if not tanking, we can also put out a good chunk of DPS when geared and set up correctly, we can also tank almost as good as a Guardian can, probably within 95% as good as them, there is no doubt in my mind we are the best Plate Class Tank on the game, not because of any one skill, but because of the roles we can fill when done correctly.
Do not mistake what im saying here, we may or may not get hit by a nerf in between now and the new expasion, we may get some what adjusted by the new Sub Class defining abilitys that we get offered but by choice.