Based on looking at the new AAs available on the Heroes tree, it looks like you want druids to be able to increase their healing output through dps, or at least allow dps to supliment healing output. Furies dps potential has increased significantly this expansion due to gear itemization, allowing dps and healing gear to be identical, and pretty much changing stances. After giving Wardens a melee AA line, and multiple AAs over the past several expansions allowing us to focus on melee attacks as our source of dps, you are now taking our ability to dps away from us by screwing us via itemization. There are no melee stats on wis gear, a continuation of SF policy, but unlike SF where we could use stuff designed for brawlers, while sacrificing wisdom, we can no longer do this. All gear being class specific has ruined class customization and to a large extent the fun in playing the game. The developers claim that we can use adornments to make up for the loss of melee stats on gear, but this is simply not true. An adornment may give me 5 MA where gear with that stat is now giving 25+. There is no way to make up for the loss of dps. Essentially the developers have removed the potential dps from wardens and replaced it with absolutely nothing. Sure a warden can still heal massive amounts, but what about when that healing is not necessary? Should all wardens just betray so that we can at least contribute when tons of heals are not needed? Some allotment needs to be made for wardens, either in letting up some of the rediculous limitations of gear, or including at the very least some stat jewelry specific for melee healers, or increasing the amount of MA/DPS/Haste that is provided on adornments. Otherwise, Wardens will be easily outclassed by their druidic cousins, and you will only see Wardens utilized by soloers, or for content requiring massive group heals- After all, why bring a healer that can contribute nothing other than heals when you can get a healer who can do nearly as much healing, and contribute dps and/or debuffs?
They stated on the beta forums that there is supposedly going to be jewellery with melee stats for healers although so far I haven't seen any, these aa's (although buggered by stances which hasn't been fixed so far) are so obviously for furies it's unreal, the only warden aa on the entire tree is Natural Presence. Some might argue that faith of the fallen and howling with the pack are also warden based however they are good for both druids and from discussion on eq2flames both furies and wardens are all taking howling with the pack which is by far the best pick of the bunch. However wardens will never do the same dps as the offensive healers (furies, inquis, mystics) and they shouldn't however the fact that defilers have more dps potential given they already have the strongest heals (wards), best debuffs, and far superior buffs to wardens is abit disappointing. Wardens need something to make us more than just a 3rd healer in the main tank group when extra heals are needed, personally I think that a groupwide offensive buff would go a long way to help this problem, some debuffs would be nice too given that undergrowth is now useless if the mob isn't a scout.
I don't have a problem with wardens doing very little dps and to compensate can push some wicked high healing output. But... the fact that healing does not scale with stats like it does for EVERY other class and the fact that healing gear in DoV really is not that much higher in terms of what healers actually get benefit from, if anything healing has been down scaled in DoV because of crit chance reduction debuffs and huge health pools. Rather than progress and improve, if anything I've seen healing go down. There is very little choice when it comes to raw increases to healing output, and there is literally no reason to pick wisdom gear to heal with since it gives absolutely no bonus to heals or survivability. More wisdom simply means more of our ****-tastic dps which still sucks, and a larger power pool to work with which is really moot to non-suck wardens and especially in groups with chanters. While wardens still can push high numbers, I honestly don't think it's high enough considering how huge health pools get and how absolutely little else the warden has to offer besides "high healing output" that is epically inefficient and only lands after the damage was dealt to the health pools. Situations where the warden's heals shine are just not often enough to compensate for the deficiencies in all other categories. If wardens are going to be soggy noodle dps with conflicting aa paths that effectively reduce their usefulness, and the last priority heals, and basically in not in fact the weakest buffers, they had better be capable of kicking the living crap out of other healers output. It is only fair if you offer one thing that you noticeably beast the tar out of the competition at that one thing. There should be a reason that a raid leader should have to consider bringing a warden as a second healer as apposed to someone else. The fact that the warden is responded to with "bring the warden if the shaman and cleric cant cut it, and if there isn't an equivilant fury available" is down right wrong. Someone has to be the bottom of the pile and I don't want to see any one class continually pegged with that position, and it especially shouldn't be due to the design problems in the itemization, utility, heal priority and balance, and functionality limitations that exist between the healers. The bottom of the pile healer should be determined by the strengths/weaknesses of the group or raid and the way the encounter works which also should not be suited for one type of healer the entire way through a zone. That forces choices to be made, and that forces players to face both fights they are well suited for and are not well suited for which encourages diversity and skill and actually paying attention and engaging in the game over picking the most favored flavor of the expansion. I honestly don't want my warden to be balanced with the intention of needing to switch gear to do more dps because I'll be locked in my dps gear when the spikes come in and not be capable of pushing the healing output that my toon was balanced around being capable of. If I play it safe and stay in my healing gear I wont be capable of pushing the dps that my toon was balanced around being capable of. Forcing multiple sets of gear without the ability to switch on the fly in mid-battle results in the class being stuck in an unbalanced grey area with double expectations that are unrealistic. The crusaders had that exact same problem prior to the crit and modifier consolidation post TSO.
Rosvita@Runnyeye wrote: I fully agree and i m quite angry about the dev work. I already posted about how bad is the warden tree if compared to the fury one (just get a look on beetney and see --- yeah imrpoved primal fury, imrpoved hibernation, pact of nature, emergency healing, and the energy dps tree). Some balancing was needed, and instead we get further advantage for the furies. It's simply insane. And now many DOV aas are designed for furies, one is even directly inspired by the fuury mythcial proc. I took pact of the druidism, it's not too bad when i m back up healing with a warder (in such case i m in glacial stance + offensive AAs set up). But when i solo heal i m in nature stance and i won't hit a lot. There is even an additionnal aspect : Mana pools do grow and mana usage does not change, so maflow do grows too (potency, manapool, crit bonus affect it). So globally mana is a non issue now. This mean that the benefit of our epic/mythical weapon is much lesser. I m still hoping for the promised class vision. If such a vision was guiding the Devs, warden would get AAs improving their healing in the warden tree (like furies do) and they would get AAs to be the battlepriest they are (self immunity to riposte or frontal, aoe procs or whatever ...). They should also bring a much higher HPS than furies, and i m sure that furies do parse as high (indeed hibernate, back in the fray and their self 10% pot buf probably allow them to parse higher). I'm reluctant to betray : almost fully mastered, betrayal quest is boring, and I love my warden. But a rationnal decision would be to betray now. I do think that it's time for warden to get organized and reclaim their due. NB. I don't have issue to find groups, prob. because people more or less trust me. I may not be the best warden around but i know my class and i always do my best. And for sure i know that i would do better as a fury.
Rosvita@Runnyeye wrote: Groupwide instinct has been reclaimed by many of us. Indeed i think that we need more than that, as example groupwide wolform would certainly be welcome. Note that our 15% crit mit buf is still nice, but when people will have 200-300% crit mitigation it won't be as important.
I've suggested the Instinct change myself again and again constantly feeding ideas to SoE however after years of asking and no change I'm not entirely sure its going to happen, I really hope this 'class vision' also brings a aa revamp for wardens cause right now we are as the OP said we are at the bottom of the pile. Wardens are being used at the moment for extra crit mit and heals on the main tank but 1 or 2 months we will either sit or play alts its simply unacceptable.
Rosvita@Runnyeye wrote: Our 15% crit mit buf is currently my only reason to not betray. And instinct won't be enough, we need a partial revamp of the warden tree. Indeed i think that hibernate and porcupine should be moved from furies to warden (or at least shared).
Odys@Storms wrote: Only if we can have your Myth power proc tbh...Maybe heirophantic genesis to keep spamming ourselves with.
Odys@Storms wrote: Personally I don't think anything should be taken from furies they were at the same place wardens are now for a long and after a much needed revamp are at a happy balance. Wardens don't need huge changes and while I admit that the warden tree could use some tweaks I'm quite happy with it. A few changes that would help wardens would be as follows: 1. Make Instinct groupwide 2. Change our faerie ally so its useful - on beta when this had shared stats I actually had it on my hotbar, this wouldn't even need to made ae immune due to the big heal on death of faerie. 3. Change our healing grove so its useful - either make this aoe immune or instead change it into a temp beneficial spell buff 4. Change Nature's Pack so its useful - either make this aoe immune or a small physical damage dot 5. Give us at least 1 more useful debuff (not stat related) 6. (This is also for furies) Revamp the AGI line charm animal is the worst aa of ANY class and due to Tortoise Shell being on the same line any raiding druid is forced to take it. 7. I'm not sure if furies would like this but change Spirit of Druidism into a temp buff.
Elhonna@Blackburrow wrote: Well i agree that our epic buff was fantastic and is fantastic for ROK, TSO and SF content. Furies were always oom ;-) But as i explained Manapools are exploding, manaflow is exploding (7-8 k manaflow will be common), mana regen over the time explode (potency, crit bonus affect it). Mana usage remains almost unchanged. So soon you will never be oom. In anycase i would certainly agree to see furies obtaining a Manaregen. => Allow the fury to cast beneficial spell in Aninmal form could be a solution.
Elhonna@Blackburrow wrote: Go on beetny and see our ROK warden AAs ;-) Your Kudzu line is useless (except to solo), but most of or AA are useless in group.So we basicaly spend 60 (or 70?) aas to reach the SF lines which is nice. As far as i m concerned that one is "balanced" between warden and furies.
I played around with a friend's warden a bit. She wanted me to see if I could increase her dps and keep her healing capabilities about the same....I played around with it enough to about double her dps and then commenced to re-teach her how to play the toon. So I've got a pretty good idea what you guys have as far as AA choices. And mana usage on a fury is freaking insane on any mobs with power drain. Using every power trick I know (which happens to be quite a few ) I'm still the hardest healer to keep in power in raid by far. We pay a pretty heavy price for our capabilites... On mobs without power drain it's not as bad, but still noticable. Now don't get me wrong here. I'm happier with my toon at the moment than I have been in an extremely long time. I just don't see where anyone asking for us to lose two class-defining abilities is at all fair. God forbid some idiot comes here and reads that comment and makes that absurd change. I'd very likely hate the game forever at that point lol.
I was real frustrated when I originally posted. Hearing that there would be no gear for melee healers was one thing. Seeing that every single item is so archetype specific as to allow only that archetype to use was the point at which I became especially annoyed and I had to post something. I don't mind the idea of giving up something for something else- and if that means that I give up some healing ability in dps gear or dps ability in healing gear, I am used to that. I have always had macros that I use- DPS stuff for trash and soloing, and healing stuff for names, it's a simple matter to hit the macro button between fights. The idea of that being too hard for anyone is perplexing. The answer to the Wardens problems is not and never will be to nerf Furies.....Frankly, Furies still exhibit some of the problems that have always plagued druids, in that the hots are just extra and often not needed.....It's just that furies, unlike wardens get something useful in exchange. During SF, I was able to put out dps comparable to other healers, furies included, and occasionally to inquisitors. Now however a warden will not be able to touch other healers for dps. That in combination with poor buffs and minimal debuffs, in a fight where tons of heals are not needed, the warden is left on the bench. While I like Rosvita's ideas regarding reworking the warden abilities, I have pretty much given up that any changes will be made and was more or less venting my frustration. I would love for the class restrictions on gear to be lifted, but again, I don't expect a change. Warden has always been my favorite class, but the oversimplification of gear options has killed the fun. I enjoy the melee line. I like the idea of having a melee healer- I also have an inquisitor, but I have to this point enjoyed the warden more. However, the AAs and gear need to make sense. There needs to be either increased melee dps buffs available through AA or allow us to get there with gear, or it's nothing more than a bait and switch scam. The cure line in the Warden tree really needs to be reassessed. Heh- making it a resist line would be an improvement.
Elhonna@Blackburrow wrote: Raw dps is not our issue. In raid, on trash i could parse as high than furies on single targets trash (for sure it depend much on what buf you have) but on mutli target they did way more. But there was a big difference, i needed to be into melee, so our dps has a cost which is being in the melee. Fact 1: The warden is not designed to be a high ranged dps but the fury is. I tried a fury spec on my warden and dps was much worst than melee spec*. As a consequence in raid or in a hard figth warden dps will be low, simply because healers try be as stationnary as possible and far from the heat of the battle. At range, even with a full int spec, a warden is a weak fury. Nukes are worst and we miss the energy tree (and several others aas). This situation is fine, and none of us is asking to have a better easy mode/ranged dps. Fact 2 : Warden are designed to be more defensive, but furies do get porcupine, improved hibernate, a HOT on ANY CURE which is just 100 time better than tranquility. So the furie is indeed the defensive druid ;-) We simply ask the equilibrium to be restored. Fact 3: A huge part of the druid balance was certainly mana usage and mana regen. DOV remove mana from the game, when manpools reach 30 000 and manaflow ~7000 each 30 sec. At 230 mana/sec you may last foreover. It seems very clear to me that the dev are completely ignorant of most mecanics. A proof of it is that warden were given tranquility (ROK?) but herbal remedies is a fury AA, and i could give many more examples. And i expect much since Eq2 is clearly slowly sinking into the doom. The fact that they decided to ignore the battlepriest population is quite meaningfull. Fact 4: Despite the extreme unbalance furies will probably remains warden with high ranged dps, porcupine , herbal remedies and a couple of extra tricks. And this simply because SOE offices are almost empty ;-) * Note this was before getting decent SF gear. Currently spell/haste, spell reuse and the no itemization of battle priest may lead to a funny conclusion : spell CA conversion may lower your dps.
Bottom line (and personal experience) Wardens are not wanted in raids unless there's nothing else around to fill the spot. Love my Warden (and the game) but it's getting more and more an excercise in frustration.
