Necromancer Feeback for the Developers.

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by ARCHIVED-Cisgo, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-Cisgo Guest

    In light of Mr. Rothgar's Undead Horde topic, I decided to start a new one and not to derail his efforts on that one. Below is my opinion of the summoners in general of the shortcomings, imbalances, as well as a few suggestions to make the necromancer a more desirabile class.
    First off, when comparing other DPS classes the necromancer requires much more attention than the other DPS classes who do "more with less". Why would a group/raid (usually running one healer, esp raid mage group) choose a necromancer who does average DPS and minimal utility and requires constant heals of 18% health loss a tick (Bloodpact, Accelerated Decay, Lich) ? Wouldn't that group/raid rather have the summoner that not only has much better DPS, but also does not require any special healing/attention and also provides a nice little group stoneskin for the group?
    Summoner imbalance: Although the "Brigand debuff plan" was scrapped prior to SoF release, all I see that the summoners received to make them more desirable was a raid buff and a plethora of pet gear. Several of these items included very powerful buffs like Empowered Minion and Destructive Forces (which was very rare in the prior expansion). On the surface this looks well and good, however when you break down the DPS and compare the necromancer pet and the conjuror pet you will see a very large gap that will continue to widen as more and more conjurors obtain this gear. As of right now conjurors on EQFlames with higher end pet gear are starting to post 100k DPS parses, as well as 1.2 mil Elemental Blast parses on SoF names. The necromancer pet is a small portion of the overall DPS and the conjuror pet is the majority of his DPS (the necromancer cannot buff his pet like the conjurors can), conjurors benefit much moreso from the pet gear, how this wasn't forseen by the developers I do not understand. At Fan Fare Elemental Blast was explained as to why it is so powerful ("suppose" to terminate the pet), however it was never explained as to why in beta test it's recast time was reduced in half. No necromancer abilities can come close to the power of this EB ability that is subject to buffs, criticals etc., no necromancer aoe abilities can come close to the conjuror's aoe abilities.
    Bottom line, necromancer needs help to be competitive and desired and balanced with it's counter-part. The necromancer needs abilities to justify his "group and raid hindrences". If the developers do not wish to give them DPS and be on par with conjurors and other DPS classes, than maybe more desirable utility might be considered. Some examples: power feeds (like EQ1), raid rezzing (with no sickness), curse curing, more healing to counteract health drains, etc. I understand most of these suggestions are taking the necromancer in another direction and he/she is suppose to be a DPS class, however I would take any positive changes at this point. Asking about Undead Horde is nice, however there are so many other glaring shortcomings of this class that should be considered before a minor insignificant ability. Thank you for reading.
  2. ARCHIVED-Suraklin Guest

    Very well said. You covered most of my issues with Necromancer and their abilities. I love the class just wish we had more to offer a group. I would never betray though even though Conjy is doing considerable more dps than us I've never liked the class every time I tried to play one.
  3. ARCHIVED-Muris Guest

    Cisgo wrote:
    Please no "twitch" from EQ1, I lost enough friends that played necro's from that, their whole raid time was spent "twitching" the healer in their group. The rest of it would turn us into clerics, and last I heard necromancers don't work for the living. I don't know where to take us at this point either, but please not in the direction of healing/twitching.
  4. ARCHIVED-Cisgo Guest

    I left out the word "twitch" on purpose because that is a dated concept. My view of the necromancer is that it uses summoned minions to do his bidding. This is where the utility should come from. Kinda like the Ooze pet......but useful and provides group/raid with buffs/debuffs that make them more desirable. I would like to see buffs/debuffs added to abilities like Vampric Orb, or other dumbfires (if they were made aoe immune). This is where I think the added utility should come from, not the necromancer himself. For example, a power siphon to Vampric Orb, not "twitching".
    We already have a rez and heal, yet they are substandard.
    Will increasing necromancer DPS to be on par with other DPS classes enough to make them just as desirable considering thier hindrences? I still think the way to improve necromancer is though increased DPS and moreso better utility.
  5. ARCHIVED-NewbJoe Guest

    I had been playing Necromancer since Nov 2005. I have seen plenty of nerfs to the class. I agree with the concept of giving the class more damage output or contribution to groups/raids. I don't agree with giving us more utility as far relying necromancer for heals or curing cures. I would suggest in changing how Dark hearts can be more useful in regeneration of power. Vampirism could be more useful as far as a orb that can be cast on any ally in the regeneration of power in exchange for health or a power siphon from target for the group or ally. I highly recommend in scrapping the ooze crawler from the Necromancer AA tree all together. I haven't seen any self-respecting necromancer ever use this pet at all.

    I perosnally like the amount of utility the necromancer has. I like the fact of not being counted on for buffing up the main tank in groups or raids or having to mezzed adds and for feeding power to a power hungry healer. I have always concerned my character for damage output by all means nessecary and I find gear and AA spec to do so.
  6. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Accelerated Decay needs to be looked at. Soulrot and Pandemic hit the max number of DoT ticks with that alone, making Upbeat Tempo only as useful as Time Compression for a necro.
  7. ARCHIVED-Cisgo Guest

    Xalmat wrote:
    This is a good example of how this class is overlooked and in need of some adjustments by the developers. Adjusting this would be nice, however gaining a tick on two spells from a troubador buff (if you even get the buff) is not going to change much in the overall picture of necromancer balance and desirability.
    Xalmat, your a conjuror I am curious as to how you feel about my above comment about the gear issue. This was Sony's attempt to make "summoners" more viable and desired, yet it seems one side benefits much more.
    I really think it is time to start thinking outside the box on this class. Again, I think other DPS classes do more with less. I think that increasing DPS alone is not enough.
  8. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    I would prefer to see shared stats with our pets. Negative consequences be damned.
  9. ARCHIVED-Garlin1 Guest

    Increasing the overall dps of a necro would be nice, however if you look at most raid necros they will be top or near top parse only outed by a warlock or assassin normally. It would be hard to balance our dps for solo, groups, and raids. Increase the first two by to much and you increase our raid dps by insane amounts like assassins had with their crit bonus buffage etc.
    Not saying by any means that necros are "working" we are still one of the most "broken" classes out there. We need a tune up, mostly in our "utility" area. Elemental Tox was nice for a bit, kept me in mage groups in raids, but eventually it wasn't enough. Broken record sure, but nearly all classes have something they can "buff" to other players. Might be a raid/group buff or a target toggle buff.
  10. ARCHIVED-NewbJoe Guest

    Garlin1 wrote:
    I can still out DPS most classes out there. I agree with it would be increasing out DPS or necromancer would be hard to have them be overpowered like assassins and the sorcerers classes.
    one thing I've always notice is Lifetap and Bloodcloud doesn't do enough to benefit the class. Grasping bones should to be used on Epic mobs or make this a green or blue Area of Effect spell. I have already mention how I would to see Dark hearts can be more useful
    I would like to see the Tank pet increase it's taunt or increase the berzerk proc on the Rending pet buff. Maybe add a Flurry proc to the tank pet.
    Just get rid of Vampirism and the ooze crawler all together. That's all I can see how to change the class for improvement. I just didn't give sit here and give a my christmas wish list for changes.
  11. ARCHIVED-Garlin1 Guest

    Trangoul@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    The neverending problem with the summoner class in general is utility and broken/Useless abilities. We dps fine, if you are unable to dps talk with other necros and figure out what they may be doing different then you are. I don't think we should be top tier dps, but I do believe their should be reasons to bring us on raids. Right now the raid wide buff is ok, not enough to bring our class in against another. Elemental tox is nice, but look at all the other "temp" dps buffs. Heck with most they are procing for 1.5-2k+ while the ours with two procs at a time hits for less then 1k normally.
    Lifetap imo is ok. It does decent damage and has saved my butt more then enough times. Bloodcloud is an amazing DPS spell if used right, but the healing part could be increased or just as I stated before made like tap veins from a SK. I am not sure if Grasping bones would be useful as a stun on epic mobs, I know I read somewhere they were looking at making chanters have more raid stuns and mezs. We already have enough "mix" of crossover abilities. Perhaps change the whole way the spell works. Temp stun is nice, but I don't know its ever been useful. Dark hearts used to be useful, they just don't return enough mana for me to even consider recasting it. With the way raids are setup rarely do you see mana problems unless a mob drains.
    Rending procs very nicely on pets, I don't know if this would really need a change. Maybe an AA to mod it somehow. As most necros can agree, the tank pet is a joke. Sure, its nice to be able to take on ^^^ overcon mobs solo... the mage pet survives just fine and does amazing damage. Taunts from the tank pet are a joke. With our increased dps the tank pet just struggles to hold aggro, even after using tinkered deaggro and bewilderment. Personally I agree with flurry on the tank, the scout pet never got the buff to make it viable. Flurry is wasted on it, unless we can find a way to make it work. As it used to be - Scout = Single target::Mage = AoE groups.. back in DoF and EARLY KoS days it was that way. Scout would never beat a mage in group encounters and mage would never beat scout on solo. While we are at it, a few more % increase in double spell attack would be nice for the pet, or pet gear to augment it.
    Vampirism got a little better with the change to how it works. It no longer breaks when the person you cast it on takes damage. They still die very quickly. Give them AoE immunity unless directly targeted and we have a winner, as you increase ranks increase how many orbs appear and/or the healing part. 1 at journey, 2 at adept, and 3 at master... Not like it does that much dps to really consider it part of our rotation. I cast it for giggles on my tank or myself before a pull if bored. Ooze crawler is a complete and utter waste. Nobody I know uses it, why would you? Replace a DPS pet for a pet that sits there and does a lame debuff that does nothing to benefit the group/raid. The devs would be better of scrapping it or redoing the entire AA. I'd rather see it turned into a temp pet or even temp pet buff then the useless pet it is now - hell make it look good rather then the old model it is now if anything!!
    Just my two cents again. I don't think the things people are asking for are overly greedy. Look at the love classes have got in the past. Assassins with their crit bonus modifers and assassinate? Warlocks with their Dark aggrivation? I could go on and on. The game has evolved nicely, but the class structure hasn't.
  12. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Garlin1 wrote:
    You seriously underestimate Elemental Toxicity's utility if you're only looking at the single target damage versus what other classes get. Nevermind that it's a gigantic detaunt (one of the most, if not the most powerful detaunt in the game excluding memwipe and hate positions) and an AoE proc that triggers multiple times by AoE spells. In a short duration heavy AoE fight, or even medium duration (1-2 minute) AoE fight with multiple mobs (3 mobs or more), Toxicity's group-wide total damage cannot be matched except by maybe VC.
  13. ARCHIVED-Garlin1 Guest

    Xalmat wrote:
    I said it is nice. I never said it was horrible. I have also heard some rumbling where the "multi proc on AoE" may be changed due to ACTs showing insane amounts of dps from that alone. The detaunt is situational. I'm sorry if your raid has a hard time with aggro management. Personally the detaunt never really changed the mechanic of how myself or the raid did things. Its sorta like giving a mana regen to X temp buff. Sure, it is nice, however it isn't something that makes a huge difference on the way the "ideal" raid is setup.
    Xalmat, you have commented before on my posts. How about supporting something rather then nit-picking through the entire post to find something you disagree with? I wasn't spreading gloom and doom, rather I simply made an observation on how I felt about an ability. ET is a very nice ability, I just dont' think it puts us in the same category as other classes on a needed basis, simply put. Perhaps being a Conjy is different, I would not know as I have never played the class before.
  14. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Honestly I don't know enough about what makes necros shine to comment either way unless its something you guys share with Conjurors. At least not yet.
    There is more to the game than just raids, and in PUGs the detaunt on Tox is pretty amazing, especially when the

    For the record I stopped raiding some time ago. But that is pretty irrelevant to this discussion.
  15. ARCHIVED-Garlin1 Guest

    I agree Xal, the big issue I see though is that Sony is pushing more and more content to raids... it is almost as if the game has become about raiding. Look back to Planes of Power in EQ1. That was the cruicial point where the game took a turn towards a different play style and it made a lot of people leave due to it. Necro is a class that really shines in a raid DPS setting, but we do lose a bunch on groups.
    It is hard to compare a necro and conjy. With the addition of Elemental Blast it changed the dynamic a bunch. We can lifeburn a mob in a group.. however the time it takes to cast VS duration of the fight is almost not worth it. A conjy can elemental blast and deal the damage almost instantly. Not pulling the overpowered card, but just showing how it makes grouping somewhat harder for a necro.
  16. ARCHIVED-Kroma Guest

    Sorry if this was posted and i missed it. didn't read everything.
    I had an idea as i was reading some of the posts. How about a pet with massive HP but pretty much no power. It would be a healer pet that used it's HP as it's healing source. I know kind of a dated idea but still it would stand to reason and possibly make Necros get invited for more stuff. Just my two cents.
  17. ARCHIVED-Rhadamanthys Guest

    I think it would be nice to be able to have a healer pet. It would definitely help us as far as utility, but it should be something a bit different than the other healers (reactives, wards, heals over time). So instead, this pet could give a sort of lich siphoning ability for the group. In this way, the damage the group did would help heal the group. Actually, this pet could be an updated version of the ooze crawler. This way, we still have that AA, and instead of doing damage, it could debuff the mobs (except they would actually be useful debuffs). One of the debuffs would allow group damage to siphon life/power for the group.
  18. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Rhadamanthys wrote:
    Conjurors have one. It's worthless. No conjuror in his right mind ever uses it unless he's desperate.
  19. ARCHIVED-Rhadamanthys Guest

    Xalmat wrote:
    I didn't ask for a conjuror's healer pet.
  20. ARCHIVED-Muris Guest

    Why does everyone want to turn us into some sort of healing / power regen class? Last I checked I deal in death, I should be doing disease and raising dead things to do my bidding.
    We need to have the pets looked at, fix their AI so they cast smarter, not just random as it seems, that would help them more I think. Fix their pathing, if I have to call my pet behind me one more time because he ran up to the mob to cast on it instead of standing behind me like I told him (/pet ranged) I'm going to send a naked gnome to the SOE HQ!
    Tweak the Accelerated Decay Health requirement, if I want to run bloodpact to save the pet on AE's, it starts to cause problems for whatever healer I have because I'm just eating up hp's so fast.
    Hearts need to be a bigger return, I've still got a few people who are addicted to them, might as well give them a bit more kick then what they have now.

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