[p]Rather than go in to great detail I think it's best to keep it simple. You can check the monk boards to get better information that I can post about all the details.[/p][p]Basically, monks are not the top fighters for DPS, far from it (especially with AAs, monk AAs are not a patch on the other fighters), and we're certainly not as good at tanking as the plate wearers.[/p][p]You will always find exceptions, as there are some impressively talented and geared monks out there that will outperform both in DPS and tanking other lesser skilled / geared fighters, but I'm talking on 'average'. [/p][p]There is a lot of evidence that we just have to work so much harder than the other fighters to perform our role(s), albeit tanking or DPS. [/p][p]Want a tank? Get a plate wearer, want a DPS, get a scout / mage. I wouldn't want to impinge on the scout DPS area, so in my humble opinion we need a boost for our tanking ability (the reason I chose a fighter in the first place).[/p][p]This could be something simple, like making 'skin like mountain' (which roots the monk) last longer & give a higher mit boost. You can't expect a MT to spend half the fight stunned (which is what Mountain stance does), - Mountain stance does indeed give a good mit boost, but being stunned during a named fight is not really practical when trying to maintain aggro.[/p][p] Another alternative would be to make Tsunami last longer. We just need something.[/p][p]Thanks for reading![/p][p]Zooce [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
[p]How do you get that monks need a boost? Do you have parse stats?[/p][p]Every monk I know top parses against guards/zerks/pallies/SK's. And they switch places against a bruiser. Doing about 2.5k-2k a fight.[/p][p]Lets see: they have invis - no other tank has they have FD - no other tank has better dps than any other tank[/p][p]If you want to take hits like a plate, roll a plate so we can hear complaints about how bad their dps is.[/p][p]Sorry but I am going to have to disagree with you on this, seeing brawlers solo 72 ^^^ names, and an epic in labs solo. Yea, will have to disagree.[/p][p] [/p]
[p]In those situations where I've seen a Monk or Bruiser do 2.5k, I've seen the DPS Spec'd Zerker or Guardian doing 3k+. And then switch groups and equipment and still tank better than us (Without even chaning AA's).[/p][p] Invis is Monk only, and it won't help you tank epics. Anyone can FD if they want to (Tinkering) and SK's have FD... and it won't help you tank epics. Better DPS is highly debatable.[/p][p]Those Zerkers, Guards, SK's and Pallies that you conisistantly see below the Monks and Bruisers... do they have comparable DPS gear? Or are they running around with chitin rings and claymore mit gear. Are they spec'd for DPS builds? Or are they spec'd more defensively.[/p][p] [/p][p]If you actually raid with plate tanks that have set themselves up as DPS because they KNOW they aren't going to be tanking the raid... you will see them matching DPS on single target encounters, and blowing through our DPS on anything 2+.[/p][p] No, this isn't a plate tank nerf thread. I think they are where they should be, and I think the game has been balanced with their current level of DPS and Defensiveness. However, the "Advantage" Brawlers had in DPS went out the window when KoS introduced 3 extra things that made autoattack better and gave em all to Plate Fighters, and barely a little to Brawlers. Among other things.[/p]
I sort of disagree too. I see the monk class as being pretty solid right now, and pushing for more DPS or higher mit would make us above and beyond what other tanks can do. I out DPS most other tanks, so much so that when I play DPS in a group, I have to make sure that I'm not taking aggro from the MT. Think of the monk as a jack-of-all-trades. We don't blow other classes away in any one thing, but we can fill a couple different roles. I like that.
Actually if u look at monks like the define them in vanguard theyre pretty much alright listed as an offensive fighter. Monks can dps, can the dodge most of those swings? Ive never found him to lol.
Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: [p] I second that...[/p][p]Beside it is VERY stupid to compare offensive state duel wielder to defensive state 1hander player DPS wise. If you are going to compare, compare to duel wielding Berzerker in offensive mode...[/p][p]And then you will see what is "Jack-of-all-trades"[/p][p] [/p]
My main is a monk - and I agree with you Savanja. I honestly don't think we need a boost...we're pretty freaking tough as it is, and we can dish out the damage when we need to. A lot of it is a matter of use of stances and watching which abilities you use for which situations.
Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: [p] Maybe monks need a boost somewhere, I don't know. But there's no fin way a zerker or guardian can sustain 3,000+ dps. Maybe a guardian can if he uses his 2 biggest hits, and the fight lasts 1.5 seconds. Maybe a zerker can, if all his aoe's are up and he pulls a room of level 60 mobs, and the fight lasts less than 30 seconds.[/p][p]Seriously, who rolls a monk with intentions on tanking epics? This game isn't revolved around raiding alone. If it was, you're probably right, then monks would need alotta love....or wait, there would be no monks![/p][p]Also remember that if those zerks and guards are tanking, then a few hundred (maybe more) of that dps isn't coming from them alone, but from the many buffs on them from other players. The parse rarely tells the true story on where exactly the dps is coming from.[/p]
I have yet to see 3K DPS from a zerker in long fights. Yeah if there are large encounter based fights that last 5 sec then I will see their damage spike due to all the AE damage they can do.
IMO, that's the whole point of a lot of classes, and the point of the AA lines you choose. But in the OPs defense, it's my understanding that a zerker in T7 can pretty much do both roles as well if not better than a brawler. Again, that's what i've read, never been there myself.
Yes, they do..though it doesn't last nearly as long. But they get to grief, err, feign others in group as well, which the SK that I play with has used for either cheating me on parsing stats (he can't always admit that I can FAR outdamage him) or as a tool to keep me from getting the shiny first. Bastage. I play with a T7 zerker regularly that is well geared, and I give up tanking to him when he's around for group. But on a run through Mistmoore Castle as MT, guess who made it further without being slaughtered? I did! As great as this zerker is, he cannot out damage me, and my avoidance occasionally gives me an edge as MT. It all really depends on situation, gear, APs, skill, etc. But a decent geared monk that is being played by someone who knows how to play their class does just fine. The only trouble I see myself having is losing aggro on multi-target encounters when I play with classes that heavily AoE. But that is just a matter of aggro management amongst group members.
[p]My stance on this issue has changed considerably. I now think Monks and Bruisers have a hard time getting through T6, but then start to shine again in T7. I recently got to 62+ and my Bruiser is becoming an actual decent hybrid class, frequently outparsing other classes on group(trash) fights, and being near the top parse on most fights vs nameds. I can't say the same for Monk, as I betrayed @ lvl 59.[/p][p]Monks and Bruisers are both very capable of putting out considerable DPS as well as being extremely effective at holding hate in a single group situation, as long as they are properly AA specced(With that note, Monk EoF AA's need some tweaking). Obviously avoidance has issues, but hopefully those will be solved in the next update, or updates soon to come.[/p][p]I think the reason Monks & Bruisers seem underpowered is that they aren't as useful in a group perspective as they are in a solo perspective. Although they can invis/FD/self heal/put out decent DPS & tank slightly....we are overshadowed by more group-oriented hybrid classes, such as a Swashbuckler or a Brigand, who both have considerable buffs AND lots of DPS.[/p][p]I, personally, have never seen a solo Monk or Bruiser complain. Monks & Bruisers that like to group a lot, yes. Overall we are very effective soloers, and with good gear, decent group DPS-off tank.[/p][p] [/p][p]IMHO, I would rather have SOE take away our solo-survivability in exchange for more group utility and tanking ability, but if they left us how we were and fixed up avoidance, I wouldn't be mad.[/p]
[p]Meh![/p][p]If i wanted to tank i'd roll a plate[/p][p]If i wanted to top DPS i'd roll a scout or mage.[/p][p]Leave us alone!! (ok..add a few more Gi's, that would be cool)...[/p][p] [/p][p] Etchi - happy 70 bruiser -[/p]
[p]Tank slightly? I tank raids without issue... [/p][p]The class is what you make of it - your skill, choices in AAs, and choices in gear determine your ability to perform in different roles. I'm completely specced for tanking, but I keep a set of dps gear handy because the raid force I play with is tank heavy. Since I have the skills/gear to do either, I usually end up dpsing on raids, picking up stray adds, and tanking in situations where more than one tank is needed. I have tanked many 74-75 named x4 raid mobs solo, though. With only permanent self-buffs up, in tanking gear, my monk has about 3500 mit and 66% avoidance.[/p][p]When specced and geared properly, every fighter can do decent dps. I have a paladin who is still in half-mastercrafted gear with only 70 AA. I parse in the 800-1000 range when I take him on raids. Once properly geared, he'll be able to parse higher than the tank-specced monk. Conversely, he is a marginal tank since all of his gear and AAs have been chosen on the basis of buffing dps rather than increasing survivability. Many questioned why I would make a dps paladin. My answer is because I thought it would be fun, and it has been.[/p][p]I'm all for trying different roles with your class, but don't believe the uninformed hype that brawlers are not viable tanks. If you want to be a dedicated dpser, that is great. Those that choose to tank can excel as tanks as well.[/p]
