[Monk] Class concerns - The Not-So Balanced Fighter

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-mr23sgte, Nov 18, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-mr23sgte Guest

    My as well get this thread started early.........
    Tons of ideas for worthwile AA's in Beta (Edited Below Two posts from original beta posters ideas) that were ignored. IMO We are clearly the worst SINGLE and ENCOUNTER Tank in the game.
    Will anything be changed for the Monk Class now that TSO is Live?
    Devastation Fist Adjustment : 5 minute Recast now - 4 Min 28 Seconds if you spec Brawler agility line. Recast Needs to be lowered or damage upped.
    Monk Raidwide was slightly changed from 14% to 9.8% **needs an attribute added
    Brawler Tree.
    Taunt Increase : Fine but needs to apply to Dragonrage aswell.
    AoE Damage : Rubbish, 15% damage increase is crap and the recast reduction is half what it needs to be. Needs to be atleast 5% damage increase, 2% crit increase, 0.2 second recast reduction per point.
    Shocking Hands : This thing is so laughable its sad, 15% dmg increase which is like an extra 30 dmg per trigger, oooh. Well I most spend points on that waste of space. Needs atleast 5% dmg increase, 1 extra trigger per point and 5 points makes it group/raid wide.
    Monk Tree.
    Peel Increase : Take it out and replace it with group encounter lock, AE taunt, DPS or Utility, make DragonRage encounterwide/ In my opinion, this aa should add group taunt components. With TSO, we already have too many single target taunts. What we really need is group taunt enhancement. Not to say, most TSO content is multple encounters
    Bite of the Cobra : Needs Debuff componet increase added /rank
    Focused Follow Up : Doesn't do what it says on the Tin. It doesn't add an additional Higher Damage Attack when all 5 Hit. Before you spends AA in this. the Art looks something like this: 300-500 Attack, followed by 4 250-350 Attacks. After the AA it looks like 400-700, followed by 5 250-350 attacks. (yes I made the numbers up as an example).
    New Monk Heal AA that replaced Group FD AA ***Heal AA that will Negate our Armor set bonus to lessen heal recast due to cap.
    Mitigating Blows : Needs longer duration or shorter recast
    Bob and Weave : Just awful, we don't need an inferior Tsunami on a longer recast. Replace it with DPS or Utility. / Is it a joke? It's the worst class aa comparing to all other fighters. What's the point to have this aa? especially it lasts only 12 sec with 4 minutes reuse timer. The duration needs to be extended to 30 sec or reuse timer lowered to 1 minute.
    Hidden Openings : Really why do we need yet another single target snap aggro./ It's another junk aa. Sigh. Sorry to say that but it is really a junk. Why? We can reduce the reuse timer of rescue and we get another new single target taunt from the end aa of fighter line.
    We have too many single target taunt abilities in this expansion and 75% of group content in this expansion is multiple encounters.
    Monk has worst aoe damage, least and worst group taunt ability all over the fighters.
    I can foresee TSO is a disaster for most monks as a group tank since they are not going to hold aggro in most multiple encounters. Also, monk gets little to nothing dps boost from TSO aa, when a group is LF dpser, monk is the worst option as dpser.
    I highly recommend that this aa should be changed to a group aoe with similar damage and stun component.
    Overall, monk aa is a huge design failure. For designers, you want to classify tanks to single target tanks and mutiple targets tanks, don't forget that mutliple targets tanks can use their multiple targets taunt/aa abilities on single target as well. It makes them overpowered in both single target and mutiple targets in aggro management.
  2. ARCHIVED-Xanrn Guest

    Nice we got moved from the Main Forum to the Forum the Devs Forgot, lovely.
  3. ARCHIVED-mr23sgte Guest

  4. ARCHIVED-ShinGoku Guest

    Great just like in beta, we get ignored again... Whoop.
  5. ARCHIVED-Yliax Guest

    Yeah, I am tired of not fitting under "tank" or "DPS". I certainly can't tank...especially with the increasing difficulty of mobs and my DPS isn't really up to snuff either. Swashies tank as well if not better and do a ton more DPS.
  6. ARCHIVED-ShinGoku Guest

    As is my swashy DOES tank better than my monk and he has dps running out his pores!

    Monk just isn't fun anymore... *cries*
  7. ARCHIVED-Khandor Guest

    It's really sad to be left out of a lot of things and not get any responses from any developers regarding the CLEARLY VISABLE issue that the monk class has. I dunno, really seems like with each new expansion that the monk class becomes more of something slapped together than something with actual thought behind it.

    It's sad, because monks are probably the coolest class in the game, yet the most neglected.
  8. ARCHIVED-Xanrn Guest

    The Problems I see with the Monk Class post-TSO.
    We have been firmly taken out of the Raid Tank running for both Main Tank and Off Tank, leaving the 4 Plate Tanks in a somewhat balanced 4 way tug of war. Fine I see why they did that.
    I don't see why though our TSO AAs were designed with Tanking as the prime factor.
    The DPS increase from our AAs is utterly unnoticeable, so much so I fail to see actually spending points in any but the Five Rings as worthwhile. The DPS increase from the revamped KoS Str line is a case of swapping dps for slightly more dps. The change to Critical mechanics didn't help Monks as much as the Bruisers.
    The Utility increase in lue of the unwarranted nerf to our raidwide is 4 steps back to take 5 steps forward.
    Then we have the main problem the seemingly utter disregard the Devs have for us a class.
    Everytime they come into threads about Monk problems, they post something utterly irrevelent to the topic being discussed and then disappear without addressing the problems. Or in the case of Fyreflyte post something that can be taken as pure sarcasm or complete disregard for the problem ie his "No" when asked if he could fix the appalling sub-par TSO Monk Fabled set.
    Feedback in game, send private messages to Aeralik/Fyreflyte on this board.
  9. ARCHIVED-ShinGoku Guest

    My biggest bone of contention with the new AAs and our class in general is that when we flip over
    to defense stance, our ability to aggro effectivly falls apart.

    Yes its nice they have added some AGI to the stance but my dps vanishes the second I need to actually
    take a couple of hits. I was really hoping the new tree would offer some effective DPS options so I could actually
    keep my aggro via damage etc but it didn't happen.

    If anything there should have been an AA that removed all the penalties from being in the various stances
    like zerkers / guardians get. This would be a biiig part of our problem solved.

    As is, the AAs we did get and I loosely paraphrase Aeralik, are being used to patch some "not so good" AAs from the EoF

    Some monks in beta asked if we could perhaps have a review of the EoF tree which might make the new AAs
    make more sense in context but it was ignored.
  10. ARCHIVED-Aull Guest

    Ummudien@Guk wrote:
    I am not trying to make this insulting but monks are a fighter class (tanks pure and simple) and this is the reason tanking aa's in tso are a prime factor and not dps. I have a friend who plays a monk that thinks monks are pure dps, but complains when the brigand in the group is out dps'ing his monk by 600-800 dps. Go figure. Sure monks can do decent dps (very well if played correctly and buffed good) but if dps goes any higher than it's current potential a monk will be truely the best class to play and would shun out the rest of the fighter classes.
    Now no fighter should actually out dps a true dps class nor should a true dps class take/avoid hits as a true fighter (tank) should either. Monks are possibly the best everyday norrath group and instance tank there are for single target aggro. Sure monks suffer slightly in aoe aggro retention but again if monks dps like scouts, hold aoe aggro/dps with no problems, tank, and solo the way they do there would be no other reason for the other 5 fighters.
    Again I am not trying to be insulting at all. Just many players do not know that monks are a fighter class and not a scout class.
  11. ARCHIVED-couching Guest

    For best single target agro, it's bruiser, not monk.
  12. ARCHIVED-Aull Guest

    Couching@Crushbone wrote:
    Interesting! Care to elaborate on why? I do think that bruisers are good spike single target aggro short duration. Mine does a fair job. However when a monk has rising dragon (I think that is the name of it) active, +140 self haste, and both taunts up makes for some very impressive up front and sustained hate.
    What is rising dragon's proc rate at? I think it is like 10 ppm with 848 threat on the master lvl. I could be wrong on that. Please correct that if I am.
  13. ARCHIVED-couching Guest

    Aull wrote:
    Dps, enough said. The gap of dps between monk and bruiser after crit change on CA damages is significant in group situtation. In raid, it's HUGE.
    Not to say, bruiser has drag, control hate, D&C and KO combo. Bruiser has by far more tools than monk on single target agro.
    Don't forget you are talking group situation. Too many classes have group haste buff. The advantage of 200 haste, monk, vs 140 haste, bruiser, is almost zero due to diminishing return.
  14. ARCHIVED-Aull Guest

    Thanks for the reply. I personally haven't seen this huge difference since the change to how ca's crit. All looking the same to me.
  15. ARCHIVED-couching Guest

    Even you didn't feel any different, the bruiser dps is better than monk in group in most cases since too many classes have group haste buffs. Also, bruisers have more tools than monks to hold agro.
    Bruiser has best single target agro now and before. It didn't change.
  16. ARCHIVED-Xanrn Guest

    Yes but we are not a Fighter Class.
    If we were a fighter class they would have balanced us when they did the 4 Plate Classes, they didn't they left us out in the cold.
    This is the exact reason we are in this mess, the plate Tanks cry when we ask for Tanking upgrades and the DPS cry when we ask for DPS upgrades. We get told "you shouldn't be able to Tank aswell as Plate Tanks" or "you shouldn't be able DPS aswell as real DPS classes" atleast once every thread.
    Its either that or that goddam idiotic use of our ability to "solo", oh wow I can rip threw solo mobs not like anyone else can do that. Certainly not Bruisers, Rangers, Assassins, Brigands, Swashbucklers, Necros, Conjurers, Coercers, Illussionists, Berzerkers, Shadowknights, Furys.
    I also find if monks dps like scouts, hold aoe aggro/dps with no problems, tank, and solo the way they do there would be no other reason for the other 5 fighters coming from a Bruiser utterly hillarious. Not to mention an utter load of bull.
    You out DPS us, you out Tank us, you out single aggro us, you out aoe aggro us and you out solo us.
    We are by far the worst tank for instances, yeah maybe the old school RoK ones, but all the new ones are full of group encounters I can barely control and repeatdly loose aggro on one or more of the mobs and I am a vp geared, mythicaled, fully mastered except for desolating fist Monk.
    We are not the best single target aggro, Bruisers, Guardians, Paladins are better.
    We are the worst aoe dps/aggro.
    Our single target DPS lead has been massively erroded against Berzerkers and Shadowknights. While Bruisers got a big boost.
    We are the worst tank both group and raid, not that group is that hard, when Rogues can tank with ease.
    See your post Aull is all well and nice, but considering I have seen Plate Tanks post the exact opposite in the Tank Balance thread, doesn't mean jack.
    We are stuck firmly between 2 groups of people, neither of them want us and both tell us to go the other group.
    There is no room in this game for a 5th/6th tank Class, period.
  17. ARCHIVED-Aull Guest

    I read over my post and I have to admit it does sound like a dev could have possibly written it. I understand your frustration(s) cause we all have them at one point or another in the everchanging game we play. Again I was not aiming my perceptions at you personally. Sorry if I have offended you or anyone. Its just a game to me.
    However if monks are not listed as a fighter class I would to know when this took place. I must be a bad player too cause I see a few of my monk friends tank and dps very very well and they make it look cool doing it. Anyway not trying to start a pissing contest here. I do agree with the "you shouldn't be able to tank as well as plate tanks" and you shouldn't be able to out dps true dps classes" cause I hear this statement too and it was frequent a while back.
    In all reality I think that brawlers are truely tanks according to what I have read on anything SOE officially has printed. So yes we should be able to hold our own with the plate tanks. Not equal too but not less than either if that makes any sense.
    Aoe aggro is and will possibly always will be both brawlers pit fall. I can live with that. I just don't like the possiblity that individuality is being lost in the game. I have no concerns with my brawler becoming this aoe machine like a paladin, sk, or zerker. If aoe is needed I will either play my zerker or sk.
  18. ARCHIVED-couching Guest

    Aull wrote:
    It is not true.
    Bruiser has much better aoe damage and faster reuse on encounter taunt. Not to say, after 170 aa, you can make D&C an encounter lock every 1 and half minute. Also, bruiser is best in single target agro, better dps and more single agro tools than monk.
    In TSO, 75% encounters are mutliple encounters. If you statement stands, monks can be deleted in this expansion since aoe agro is needed in almost every heroic instance in TSO.
    No body asks aoe taunt or damage as much as sk or zerker. But making monk as worst aoe agro tank and most monks have aoe agro issues is not acceptable since our primary role is tanking in heroic group.
    Aoe tank didn't have issue on single target but single target tank has issue on aoe agro is clearly out of balance. It's called overpowered.
    The current issues of monks are that we are on the bottom of food chain in fighter classes. Bruiser is superior in very aspect no matter in tanking, dps, singel target agro and aoe agro.
    I can stand that brusier has better dps and agro than monk since they are offensive brawler. But being offensive brawler with better tanking capability than monk, the defensive brawler, is totally unacceptable for myself.
  19. ARCHIVED-Aull Guest

    Couching@Crushbone wrote:
    I do have a hard time seeing that monk dps is so trashy by what I read here. I mean is bruiser dps that high and above monk dps? I am being honest here by our raid parse my freinds monk and my bruiser are close. He is usually 300-800 ahead of me but he is in the dirge group w/inquis and I am not. I am sure that the tables would be closer if I had a dirge and inquis w/ me.
    Thanks again.
  20. ARCHIVED-couching Guest

    We got single target taunt refresh and bruiser got encounter taunt refresh.
    For dps comparsion, please don't making conclusion by your personal experience only.
    Bruiser has better dps (or better dps potential) than monk is a hard cold truth. It the same truth that assassin did more dps than brawler. It's not going to change even if your guild assasin did less dps than you do (just an assumption for example).